U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-29-2019, 08:24 PM
 
103 posts, read 40,055 times
Reputation: 45

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by coconada View Post
Center City/Downtown is like Downtown Brooklyn or Lower Manhattan but more of a square street pattern instead of zig zags. It has a very historic feel along the Delaware River.

eastern South Philly (east of Broad) is more like Bensonhurst, Sunset Park, Bay Ridge. Historically Italian, but with gorwing Mexican and Asian (Indian, Chinese, SE Asian) presence, as well as wealthier whites "hispters".

western South Philly (west of Broad) is more like western Crown Heights and Prospect Heights, some parts are being gentrified by whites, some parts are low income Black American areas.

Southwest Philly is like Canarsie/Flatlands area. Declining white population (Irish) and increasing black population (Black American, Caribbean, African)

West Philly is like Flatbush and Crown Heights. Predominately Black American but with a large and growing number of Caribbean blacks from places like Jamaica, Haiti, and Trinidad, as well as Africans from Liberia.

Fishtown and lower North Philly (south of Girard) is more like Red Hook, Williamsburg, Park Slope, or the Village in Manhattan. Wealthy hipster type whites. Many portions are previously black/hispanic gentrified areas. Also a small portion north of Center City has a Chinese presence

eastern North Philly (east of Broad) is similar to the Bed Stuy-Bushwick border in Northwest Brooklyn, as Broadway separates more Hispanic Bushwick from blacker Bed Stuy same way Germantown Avenue does in North Philly. Another comparasion would be black Central Harlem and Hispanic East Harlem, or even parts of the South Bronx maybe. The area has a large Caribbean Hispanic population, especially Puerto Ricans and to a lesser degree Dominicans. Race aside, it feels like East NY.

western North Philly (west of Broad) is similar to Bed Stuy or Harlem in black pride but like Brownsville or East NY in Crime. The area is Philly's Black American epicenter, being over 90% Black American, having very few whites, Hispanics, or immigrant blacks.

Kensington/Riverwards is more like Williamsburg but with the opposite transition, decreasing white population and increasing minorites. The area is transitioning from ethnic whited (Polish, Irish) to Puerto Rican and some Black American, as well smaller numbers of other blacks/hispanics.

Lower Northeast (close to Uptown and Kensington) is more like somewhere in Queens. Previously mostly white, now its super diverse, with increasing black (Black American, Caribbean, African), hispanic (PR, DR, Brazilian, Mexican), and asian (many types) populations.

Upper Northeast (far northeast corner of the city, going towards Trenton) most like Staten Island or a Brooklyn comparision would be Bergen Beach. The last bastion of middle class (non-hipster) whiteness in the city of Philadelphia, the rest of them are in the suburbs .

Uptown (northern most part of Philly, north/northwest of Roosevelt Parkway) mostly like Canarsie, East Flatbush, or the 90s in Brownsville. Predominately Black American with smaller numbers of whites, hispanics, and caribbean blacks.

Keep in mind the black/hispanic areas may have ethnic similarities to NYC, but they have crime/poverty more comparable to Chicago. North Philly is more dangerous than anywhere in NYC, which is arguably now one of the safest cities in America.

This was a good breakdown. Would you say Philly is tougher than in Brooklyn?













































Would you say Philly is rougher than 70s 80s or 90s Brooklyn?
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-30-2019, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,713,512 times
Reputation: 3501
Some comments on the post immediately preceding mine:

"Uptown" is the name of a theater, now shuttered, on North Broad Street in the block atop Susquehanna-Dauphin subway station. The theater was Philly's answer to the Apollo in Harlem, and the stretch of Broad Street around it does have some similarities to 125th Street, but they're tenuous.

Otherwise, no one in Philadelphia uses the word "Uptown" to refer to a city neighborhood or district. Based on the poster's geography, the neighborhoods he used that term to describe have these names: East Oak Lane, West Oak Lane, Logan, Olney. The last of these has a sizable Korean presence, and East Oak Lane is home to the affluent African-Americans who fly under the radar hereabouts. I can't think of a Brooklyn neighborhood that would be an analogue to East Oak Lane.

The thoroughfare that cuts a wide swath through Northeast Philadelphia is Roosevelt Boulevard. The street everyone simply calls "the Parkway" is Benjamin Franklin Parkway in Center City's northwest quadrant.

Kensington and the River Wards (two words, unless you're talking about the development firm called The RiverWards Group) are on opposite trajectories, and as far as I can tell, the River Wards aren't getting blacker. Instead, the Wave that has washed over Fishtown - which was lower-class Irish, not black (indeed, we weren't welcome there) - is making its way across the old Reading Railroad viaduct that forms a wall separating Port Richmond from Fishtown. That Wave is largely white, as are the bulk of the people moving into East and South Kensington. The rest of Kensington is awaiting its moment, though there are some encouraging signs of renewal in Harrowgate (the area to the north and west of Tioga station on the Market-Frankford Line).

What the poster called the "Upper Northeast" is more commonly called the Far Northeast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
You weren't in the city for the "6th Borough" description of Philadelphia which got a bit of traction. So some ex-NYers, at least at the time, did not care at all about Philly's own identity. They wanted to duplicate what they left in NY but at a cheaper price.
You do know, do you not, that the woman who wrote that infamous New York Times article was a writer for Philadelphia Weekly?

I wonder if she found any work in this town after that.

But to your larger point:

While the net flow of migrants between the two cities has been towards Philadelphia for more than 20 years now, the flow varies by borough (see this recent Inquirer article for a chart, BTW, you New Yorkers reading this should take a look at the widely reproduced 1839 propaganda poster in it; Philly is not now, nor has it ever been, interested in being another New York).

Manhattan is the true outlier among American urban districts. You cannot obtain what it offers anywhere else, not even in those places like Chicago's Gold Coast or Philadelphia's Rittenhouse Square that bear some passing resemblance to it. Hence, the net flow of migrants has been towards Manhattan.

The other four boroughs have been sending residents to Philadelphia (the Bronx, only recently), but no borough has sent more residents here than Brooklyn. It's not because there are Philly neighborhoods that remind Brooklynites of the ones they left, either. Rather, it's because the overall bundle of amenities Philly offers is close enough to what Brooklyn offers to satisfy the migrants - and the cost of housing is far cheaper. It was an ex-Brooklynite who told the South Philly rapper we interviewed in PhillyMag recently, "It's like 80 percent of New York at 20 percent of the cost!" I don't think you'd get a Manhattanite to say that, ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
I just moved back to Philly after 13 years in Brooklyn. While there are lots of superficial similarities to find..theres still the fact that Brooklyn is the size of Chicago. Its the biggest borough of NYC. It's a really big place with lots of different areas. I think it's easier to find Philly in Brooklyn than it is to find Brooklyn in Philly. If that makes any sense.

And I think the vibe is pretty different. I always say that people shouldnt come to Philly and look for New York, because you wont find it. Philly has got it's own distinct flavor, and you've got to love it (or not) for what it is. That said, I'm very happy to be back.
Agreed, but see the comment directly above the post of yours I quoted. People make tradeoffs all the time, and when it comes to housing costs, many people will gladly settle for the close approximation to the genuine article if the close approximation costs much less.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 05:23 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,809,799 times
Reputation: 2046
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Agreed, but see the comment directly above the post of yours I quoted. People make tradeoffs all the time, and when it comes to housing costs, many people will gladly settle for the close approximation to the genuine article if the close approximation costs much less.
True. Though I do take some issue with the frequent (on here) (and pretty arbitrary IMO) separation of the boroughs of NYC for use in comparisons to Philly. As if living in Brooklyn vs Manhattan vs Queens etc were totally different or separate experiences, and you weren't all experiencing and sharing and traveling in the same very unique city every day. Or that people livng in a given Manhattan neighborhood (lots of which are more far flung than neighborhoods in Queens or Brooklyn, are in some way having a more genuine NYC experience because of their borough designation.. There is no monolithic experience of living in any of the 5 boroughs. Certainly none more shared than the experience of living in NYC as a whole.
It makes for silly fun arguments, I guess. And some clickbait for newspapers. And definitely a whoole lot of typing. But doesn't make much sense to me.
Brooklyn is the most populous borough, and Manhattan is often the first place people move to in NYC... which are mundane facts that may also explain some of the observations made in that inky article.. but it's less exciting story.

As an aside, thanks for reminding everyone that the infamous sixth borough article came from Philly journalists! Haha

Last edited by rotodome; 07-30-2019 at 05:48 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,713,512 times
Reputation: 3501
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
True. Though I do take some issue with the frequent (on here) (and pretty arbitrary IMO) separation of the boroughs of NYC for use in comparisons to Philly. As if living in Brooklyn vs Manhattan vs Queens etc were totally different or separate experiences, and you weren't all experiencing and sharing and traveling in the same very unique city every day. Or that people livng in a given Manhattan neighborhood (lots of which are more far flung than neighborhoods in Queens or Brooklyn, are in some way having a more genuine NYC experience because of their borough designation.. There is no monolithic experience of living in any of the 5 boroughs. Certainly none more shared than the experience of living in NYC as a whole.
It makes for silly fun arguments, I guess. And some clickbait for newspapers. And definitely a whoole lot of typing. But doesn't make much sense to me.
Brooklyn is the most populous borough, and Manhattan is often the first place people move to in NYC... which are mundane facts that may also explain some of the observations made in that inky article.. but it's less exciting story.

As an aside, thanks for reminding everyone that the infamous sixth borough article came from Philly journalists! Haha
You're most welcome. Most of us working journalists here put her face up on dart boards afterwards.

But as for your other point: I don't think anyone here ascribes to New York some monolithic character - and that's why we do distinguish among the boroughs, and why those in the know further distinguish among neighborhoods within the boroughs. And as Philly is a large city in the eyes of everyone but New Yorkers :P , it would seem to me only natural for people to try to map parts of it onto analogous parts of New York much the way I map my native and adopted states and hometowns (Missouri, Pennsylvania; Kansas City, Philadelphia) onto each other. Similes and analogies help lots of people make sense of things that are in fact different in many ways.

And while they're all New Yorkers, the lived experience of Staten Islanders is qualitatively different from that of Harlem residents, or Harlemites from residents of Bay Ridge, or Bay Ridgers from those in Brooklyn Heights. There may be common spaces or activities they all partake in or share, but they are distinct because they are nonetheless rooted or anchored in a specific place. Now, I will say that most people give all of the boroughs save Staten Island status as "real" New York, especially since all four have had some widespread representation in the popular culture ("The Honeymooners," "Do the Right Thing," "Crooklyn": Brooklyn; "All in the Family," Archie Bunker's Place": Queens; "Fort Apache, The Bronx" (now outdated): The Bronx; "The Jeffersons," "Sex in the City," "Seinfeld" and a slew of other TV series and movies, including "I Love Lucy" for its first five seasons or so: Manhattan). But for many, Manhattan - in particular the part below 96th Street - epitomizes all that places New York in a league apart from other large American cities, and thus becomes a sort of shorthand for "New York" the way the Liberty Bell, Independence Hall and cheesesteaks are a form of shorthand for "Philadelphia."

Brooklyn may be New York's most populous borough, but its population is only twice Manhattan's. And the net flow of residents is towards Manhattan but away from Brooklyn. I think the population of Queens falls between that of Manhattan and that of Brooklyn, so I wonder if the difference in net migration between Queens and Brooklyn is proportional or disproportional. As most of the New Yorkers who move here - from whatever borough or neighborhood - cite cost of living in general, and of housing in particular, as leading them to move to Philadelphia, I have to conclude that something about Philadelphia makes it more like Brooklyn, or enough like it to satisfy the desires of the Brooklynites, to account for the difference in migration patterns.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 08:51 PM
 
90 posts, read 23,858 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWSWJ View Post
This was a good breakdown. Would you say Philly is tougher than in Brooklyn?
Philly is definetly worse than Brooklyn now, and on par with BK/BX in the 80s and 90s
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 08:56 PM
 
90 posts, read 23,858 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Some comments on the post immediately preceding mine:

"Uptown" is the name of a theater, now shuttered, on North Broad Street in the block atop Susquehanna-Dauphin subway station. The theater was Philly's answer to the Apollo in Harlem, and the stretch of Broad Street around it does have some similarities to 125th Street, but they're tenuous.

Otherwise, no one in Philadelphia uses the word "Uptown" to refer to a city neighborhood or district. Based on the poster's geography, the neighborhoods he used that term to describe have these names: East Oak Lane, West Oak Lane, Logan, Olney. The last of these has a sizable Korean presence, and East Oak Lane is home to the affluent African-Americans who fly under the radar hereabouts. I can't think of a Brooklyn neighborhood that would be an analogue to East Oak Lane.

The thoroughfare that cuts a wide swath through Northeast Philadelphia is Roosevelt Boulevard. The street everyone simply calls "the Parkway" is Benjamin Franklin Parkway in Center City's northwest quadrant.

Kensington and the River Wards (two words, unless you're talking about the development firm called The RiverWards Group) are on opposite trajectories, and as far as I can tell, the River Wards aren't getting blacker. Instead, the Wave that has washed over Fishtown - which was lower-class Irish, not black (indeed, we weren't welcome there) - is making its way across the old Reading Railroad viaduct that forms a wall separating Port Richmond from Fishtown. That Wave is largely white, as are the bulk of the people moving into East and South Kensington. The rest of Kensington is awaiting its moment, though there are some encouraging signs of renewal in Harrowgate (the area to the north and west of Tioga station on the Market-Frankford Line).

What the poster called the "Upper Northeast" is more commonly called the Far Northeast.



You do know, do you not, that the woman who wrote that infamous New York Times article was a writer for Philadelphia Weekly?

I wonder if she found any work in this town after that.

But to your larger point:

While the net flow of migrants between the two cities has been towards Philadelphia for more than 20 years now, the flow varies by borough (see this recent Inquirer article for a chart, BTW, you New Yorkers reading this should take a look at the widely reproduced 1839 propaganda poster in it; Philly is not now, nor has it ever been, interested in being another New York).

Manhattan is the true outlier among American urban districts. You cannot obtain what it offers anywhere else, not even in those places like Chicago's Gold Coast or Philadelphia's Rittenhouse Square that bear some passing resemblance to it. Hence, the net flow of migrants has been towards Manhattan.

The other four boroughs have been sending residents to Philadelphia (the Bronx, only recently), but no borough has sent more residents here than Brooklyn. It's not because there are Philly neighborhoods that remind Brooklynites of the ones they left, either. Rather, it's because the overall bundle of amenities Philly offers is close enough to what Brooklyn offers to satisfy the migrants - and the cost of housing is far cheaper. It was an ex-Brooklynite who told the South Philly rapper we interviewed in PhillyMag recently, "It's like 80 percent of New York at 20 percent of the cost!" I don't think you'd get a Manhattanite to say that, ever.



Agreed, but see the comment directly above the post of yours I quoted. People make tradeoffs all the time, and when it comes to housing costs, many people will gladly settle for the close approximation to the genuine article if the close approximation costs much less.
Ive heard many black Philly natives refer to the northern portion of Philly (Olney, Germantown, Oak Lane) , as 'Uptown'. They definetly dont associate it with North Philly, which is further south.

The Riverwards is a mixed bag, Fishtown is becoming more like Northern Liberties, but Port Richmond is becoming more like Kensington. Ethnic whites are leaving Fishtown and being replaced by hipster whites, while in Port Richmond ethnic whites are being replaced by hispanics/blacks.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 09:52 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,809,799 times
Reputation: 2046
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
You're most welcome. Most of us working journalists here put her face up on dart boards afterwards.

But as for your other point: I don't think anyone here ascribes to New York some monolithic character - and that's why we do distinguish among the boroughs, and why those in the know further distinguish among neighborhoods within the boroughs. And as Philly is a large city in the eyes of everyone but New Yorkers :P , it would seem to me only natural for people to try to map parts of it onto analogous parts of New York much the way I map my native and adopted states and hometowns (Missouri, Pennsylvania; Kansas City, Philadelphia) onto each other. Similes and analogies help lots of people make sense of things that are in fact different in many ways.

And while they're all New Yorkers, the lived experience of Staten Islanders is qualitatively different from that of Harlem residents, or Harlemites from residents of Bay Ridge, or Bay Ridgers from those in Brooklyn Heights. There may be common spaces or activities they all partake in or share, but they are distinct because they are nonetheless rooted or anchored in a specific place. Now, I will say that most people give all of the boroughs save Staten Island status as "real" New York, especially since all four have had some widespread representation in the popular culture ("The Honeymooners," "Do the Right Thing," "Crooklyn": Brooklyn; "All in the Family," Archie Bunker's Place": Queens; "Fort Apache, The Bronx" (now outdated): The Bronx; "The Jeffersons," "Sex in the City," "Seinfeld" and a slew of other TV series and movies, including "I Love Lucy" for its first five seasons or so: Manhattan). But for many, Manhattan - in particular the part below 96th Street - epitomizes all that places New York in a league apart from other large American cities, and thus becomes a sort of shorthand for "New York" the way the Liberty Bell, Independence Hall and cheesesteaks are a form of shorthand for "Philadelphia."

Brooklyn may be New York's most populous borough, but its population is only twice Manhattan's. And the net flow of residents is towards Manhattan but away from Brooklyn. I think the population of Queens falls between that of Manhattan and that of Brooklyn, so I wonder if the difference in net migration between Queens and Brooklyn is proportional or disproportional. As most of the New Yorkers who move here - from whatever borough or neighborhood - cite cost of living in general, and of housing in particular, as leading them to move to Philadelphia, I have to conclude that something about Philadelphia makes it more like Brooklyn, or enough like it to satisfy the desires of the Brooklynites, to account for the difference in migration patterns.
Oh, when I said the thing about monolithic characterization, I was talking about the monolithic talk about the boroughs. ie: "Brooklyn is this, Manhattan is this, Staten Island is this" etc.. I think they're all a much more mixed bag than that. NYC is a complex place, and I think as a whole it feels almost like a small country, but one with a strong national identity.

I agree with you when you are talking about neighborhoods. but boroughs are huge chunks of city with lots of very varied neighborhoods within each one of them.
I do understand what you are saying. I was probably paraphrasing my thought-responses to various posts I've read on here, and it just all gushed out. (I usually show more restraint, because going on and on about NYC in the Philly forum is tacky. )

The outside perception of "New York" from TV and other media is certainly why many people from all over dream of moving to certain parts of Manhattan to live in their favorite tv show (that may have actually been filmed someplace else). And then after a while many naturally move around to other parts of the city, where most of the people that do all the actual New York things that make non-fictional New York what it is, actually live.

Definitely a lot of why people are leaving Brooklyn in high numbers is because high numbers of people live there in the first place, combined with how it's boomed and become extremely expensive recently, and pushed many people with the means to move out (e.g. 800sf homely frame house in Windsor Terrace selling for 1.2 million? ack!)
It sure sped up our move back to Philly, where instead of being extremely limited in what and where we could buy, we were able to be picky about our favorite neighborhood, and get a nice house there, and are very happy.

My wife and I are 'city people'. I grew up in Philly (Germantown, in fact). But I cant say the same about most of my friends and colleagues in NY. I'm wondering how the migration patterns of "Brooklynites" to places like Philly vs to the suburbs or upstate compare, ie: how much it's about chasing a set of amenities?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-30-2019, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,713,512 times
Reputation: 3501
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconada View Post
Ive heard many black Philly natives refer to the northern portion of Philly (Olney, Germantown, Oak Lane) , as 'Uptown'. They definetly dont associate it with North Philly, which is further south.

The Riverwards is a mixed bag, Fishtown is becoming more like Northern Liberties, but Port Richmond is becoming more like Kensington. Ethnic whites are leaving Fishtown and being replaced by hipster whites, while in Port Richmond ethnic whites are being replaced by hispanics/blacks.
Um, I live in Germantown.

It's not considered part of North Philly at all. There are those, the City Planning Commission among them, that do consider Olney, the Oak Lanes and Fern Rock part of North Philly.

Of late, people have come to call the part of the city consisting of Germantown, Mt. Airy, Chestnut Hill, Roxborough and Manayunk "Northwest Philadelphia," a term I do not recall hearing used widely when I moved here 37 years ago.

And Olney lies between Front and Sixth streets. Many get confused because the major transfer station (original northern terminus) on the Broad Street Line is named for the cross street, but they think it denotes the neighborhood the way Logan, the next station south, and Fern Rock, the next one north (and current terminus), do. It doesn't.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2019, 10:24 AM
 
9,932 posts, read 5,633,543 times
Reputation: 3478
Quote:
Originally Posted by coconada View Post
Ive heard many black Philly natives refer to the northern portion of Philly (Olney, Germantown, Oak Lane) , as 'Uptown'. They definetly dont associate it with North Philly, which is further south.

The Riverwards is a mixed bag, Fishtown is becoming more like Northern Liberties, but Port Richmond is becoming more like Kensington. Ethnic whites are leaving Fishtown and being replaced by hipster whites, while in Port Richmond ethnic whites are being replaced by hispanics/blacks.
No, we don't call those "Uptown" we call them by their actual names.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-31-2019, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,713,512 times
Reputation: 3501
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
No, we don't call those "Uptown" we call them by their actual names.
I've lived here 37 years. kyb01 has lived here all her life. I think we may have a better feel for who calls what what and what's where than you appear to, coconada. My experience with speaking to people around here about neighborhood terminology, and what terms they use, mirrors hers, not yours.

And your characterization of Kensington falls wide of the mark in several respects as well. There are several subneighborhoods in Kensington, and some of them - in particular East Kensington, which lies between Fishtown and Port Richmond*, and South (or Old) Kensington - have become significantly more affluent and whiter over the last decade.

I really do wonder how long you've lived here, or even whether you live here at all.

*There is a small area east of Frankford Avenue below the Reading viaduct where at least two of the civic organizations serving Fishtown, East Kensington and Old Richmond (the part of Port Richmond that lies south of the railroad) overlap; some wags here refer to this triangle as "Port Fishington."

I also have seen new housing development pop up in Port Richmond's southern reaches.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top