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Old 08-06-2019, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,709,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
To consider everything up to Girard "Greater Center City" is truly wild. To extend the Center City southern boundary to Christian Street, or maybe even Washington Avenue would make sense to me, since the neighborhoods run so seamlessly into one another. It never made sense to me that South Street wasn't really included in Center City. However, I think the Center City Proper northern boundary definition actually still makes sense, considering how separated most of the 'hoods to the north feel from CC.
The official southern boundary of the 1682 (incorporated 1701) Town of Philadelphia, and thus of Center City, is South Street. "River to river and Vine to Pine" is rhyming but inaccurate shorthand, and the northernmost two blocks of postal districts 19146 and 19147 (Pine being the northern boundary of both) lie within Center City.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,709,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
That sounds like gentrification with Center City as the node from which revitalization stretches. Williamsburg did not get “Greater Manhattan” status when it gentrified. [...]
But keep in mind that the way we visualize Philadelphia politically is different from the way New Yorkers visualize their city politically.

Of course Williamsburg wouldn't get called "Greater Manhattan" - it's in Brooklyn, and the two are distinct places.

By contrast, prior to 1854, Philadelphia was the only city within Philadelphia County. Everything else was a subordinate category: borough, township or district. Some of the outlying boroughs, in particular Frankford and Germantown, became "urban centers" of their own, and those two places retain distinct identities apart from yet within that of the city as a whole today. But everything adjacent to the pre-consolidation City of Philadelphia was a "suburb," so to speak. The consolidation was effected in order to provide city levels of services to the under-policed suburbs bordering it, a reaction to the nativist riots that convulsed the city in the 1840s.

So calling these places - both north and south of the city core - "greater Center City" is simply history repeating itself.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
525 posts, read 206,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
But keep in mind that the way we visualize Philadelphia politically is different from the way New Yorkers visualize their city politically.

Of course Williamsburg wouldn't get called "Greater Manhattan" - it's in Brooklyn, and the two are distinct places.

By contrast, prior to 1854, Philadelphia was the only city within Philadelphia County. Everything else was a subordinate category: borough, township or district. Some of the outlying boroughs, in particular Frankford and Germantown, became "urban centers" of their own, and those two places retain distinct identities apart from yet within that of the city as a whole today. But everything adjacent to the pre-consolidation City of Philadelphia was a "suburb," so to speak. The consolidation was effected in order to provide city levels of services to the under-policed suburbs bordering it, a reaction to the nativist riots that convulsed the city in the 1840s.

So calling these places - both north and south of the city core - "greater Center City" is simply history repeating itself.
Yeah, I was speaking in hyperbole, of course. Liken it to how East Harlem has not gained "Greater Upper East Side" status, if you will.

I don't think the original boundaries of Philadelphia are what most people think of when they think Center City. The meaning of what we have come to understand Center City as, both the CBD and central residential area of the city, is lost with such a generous extension of boundaries, especially when there are such clear human-made boundaries to the north. In fact, I would go as far to say it would make more sense to extend "Greater Center City" to the far Eastern end of University City, where developers are increasing the breadth of our skyline. At least it makes some sense from a built environment standpoint. (I'm not actually arguing for this part of University City to be included in CC).

Places like Brewerytown and Francisville have little in common with today's Center City. I'm not saying these are not decent places to live, but much (or all) parts of these 'hoods are south of Girard, and definitely do not function like Center City.
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Old 08-06-2019, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
Yeah, I was speaking in hyperbole, of course. Liken it to how East Harlem has not gained "Greater Upper East Side" status, if you will.

I don't think the original boundaries of Philadelphia are what most people think of when they think Center City. The meaning of what we have come to understand Center City as, both the CBD and central residential area of the city, is lost with such a generous extension of boundaries, especially when there are such clear human-made boundaries to the north. In fact, I would go as far to say it would make more sense to extend "Greater Center City" to the far Eastern end of University City, where developers are increasing the breadth of our skyline. At least it makes some sense from a built environment standpoint. (I'm not actually arguing for this part of University City to be included in CC).

Places like Brewerytown and Francisville have little in common with today's Center City. I'm not saying these are not decent places to live, but much (or all) parts of these 'hoods are south of Girard, and definitely do not function like Center City.
Well, first, Brewerytown is entirely north of Girard, However, I do agree that there isn't a natural barrier on the southern section of the city - straight down to the stadiums and this does make the area visually more connected. However, the northern barrier isn't a wall or a fence. It's basically one or two blocks of overpasses, triple-lanes streets or underpasses, but once you get past those (which really isn't difficult as they all have lights and right-of-ways, and I see pedestrians all over those areas), you're in either Spring Garden, Loft District, Fairmount, Francisville, Art Museum, Callowhill, or Northern Liberties neighborhoods.

Fairmount and Callowhill/Northern Liberties are arguably the two most "center cityish" neighborhoods in the entire city. Both of their borders extend directly to Girard and are even enabling very strong and sustained growth beyond Girard. Also, once you hit Broad Street, there is a relatively new restaurant row that is very well patronized, right down the street from the Divine Lorraine and a brand new building (https://philly.curbed.com/2018/9/26/...1300-fairmount) breaking ground behind it.

Again, I suppose it depends on what one specifically thinks makes a neighborhood like center city enough to be considered greater center city. I feel it's more the vibe: housing style and price points, restaurant and entertainment venues, and, most importantly, the people who patronize said establishments or take up residences in the area. From what I've seen recently, the aforementioned neighborhoods align quite closely to center city - certainly closely enough to be considered "greater CC."
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
525 posts, read 206,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport View Post
Well, first, Brewerytown is entirely north of Girard, However, I do agree that there isn't a natural barrier on the southern section of the city - straight down to the stadiums and this does make the area visually more connected. However, the northern barrier isn't a wall or a fence. It's basically one or two blocks of overpasses, triple-lanes streets or underpasses, but once you get past those (which really isn't difficult as they all have lights and right-of-ways, and I see pedestrians all over those areas), you're in either Spring Garden, Loft District, Fairmount, Francisville, Art Museum, Callowhill, or Northern Liberties neighborhoods.

Fairmount and Callowhill/Northern Liberties are arguably the two most "center cityish" neighborhoods in the entire city. Both of their borders extend directly to Girard and are even enabling very strong and sustained growth beyond Girard. Also, once you hit Broad Street, there is a relatively new restaurant row that is very well patronized, right down the street from the Divine Lorraine and a brand new building (https://philly.curbed.com/2018/9/26/...1300-fairmount) breaking ground behind it.

Again, I suppose it depends on what one specifically thinks makes a neighborhood like center city enough to be considered greater center city. I feel it's more the vibe: housing style and price points, restaurant and entertainment venues, and, most importantly, the people who patronize said establishments or take up residences in the area. From what I've seen recently, the aforementioned neighborhoods align quite closely to center city - certainly closely enough to be considered "greater CC."
No, Brewerytown’s southern border is Parrish St. The rest I agree we will have to just disagree upon. I just wonder if you’ve ever gotten off at the BSL Girard Station and think the surrounding area feels anything like Center City. Plenty of neighborhoods have gentrified, just like much of West Philly has, but it doesn’t make them Center City. I have walked North of Center City on the overpass and frankly it is kind of unpleasant (compared to strolling out of CC proper into South Philly). I definitely don’t feel like I’m in Center City when I pass over.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:56 PM
 
557 posts, read 404,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
No, Brewerytown’s southern border is Parrish St. The rest I agree we will have to just disagree upon. I just wonder if you’ve ever gotten off at the BSL Girard Station and think the surrounding area feels anything like Center City. Plenty of neighborhoods have gentrified, just like much of West Philly has, but it doesn’t make them Center City. I have walked North of Center City on the overpass and frankly it is kind of unpleasant (compared to strolling out of CC proper into South Philly). I definitely don’t feel like I’m in Center City when I pass over.
I actually didn't know Brewerytown went to Parrish, but looked it up and you're correct. My source also said it goes to Cecil B. Moore to the north. Regardless, I guess we just see the term "greater center city" in different ways. I don't think "greater" has to directly mimic center city. I see it as an extension of the core and I do think the extension of the core has spread to Girard (or very close) and to around Tasker Ave. I guess none of this nomenclature really matters though as long as people continue to flock to these neighborhoods and continue to push growth north and south of the above streets.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:23 PM
 
9,932 posts, read 5,629,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
To consider everything up to Girard "Greater Center City" is truly wild. To extend the Center City southern boundary to Christian Street, or maybe even Washington Avenue would make sense to me, since the neighborhoods run so seamlessly into one another. It never made sense to me that South Street wasn't really included in Center City. However, I think the Center City Proper northern boundary definition actually still makes sense, considering how separated most of the 'hoods to the north feel from CC.
With the rebirth of The Met (at Broad and Poplar) extending CC, northward wrt GCC, is increasingly starting to make sense.
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Old 08-07-2019, 03:35 PM
 
9,932 posts, read 5,629,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport View Post
See I disagree. I think Girard and Tasker are very appropriate boundaries at this point in time. I see CC as being defined as "an area consisting of neighborhoods within geographic boundaries that are frequented interchangeably." The restaurants on Fairmount Ave. west of Broad, the venues in NL up to Girard and those in Passyunk Square, Grad Hospital/Point Breeze sections as well as QV and Pennsport, are all being patronized by many of the same people who 10 years ago would never have gone north of Vine and south of South. And, the same people are actually deciding to live in these neighborhoods at housing prices that reflect a "greater CC."
Truthfully the lower eastern part of Fairmount Ave has been a thing for about 40 years. It's been that way ever since the idea of really making a museum out of ESP started to take shape. The Philadelphian condo has been around since the 60s as another reference point.

But, I agree, it's much more of a destination now.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Philaburbia
32,836 posts, read 60,943,751 times
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I love how a discussion about Norristown has de-evolved into an argument over Philadelphia neighborhood boundaries.

Not.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
525 posts, read 206,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81 View Post
I love how a discussion about Norristown has de-evolved into an argument over Philadelphia neighborhood boundaries.

Not.
Have you not noticed the tendency for threads to change topics after a few pages on this forum, especially considering your seniority here? I’m not sure why you singled out this thread. I thought it was an interesting discussion with a surprising amount of civility.

P.S. I asked some of my friends (who are not on C-D) for their thoughts on the idea of a “Greater Center City” that extends to Girard. It definitely seems like a popular idea here on City-Data. They too thought it was a wild idea considering how different those North Philly ‘hoods feel. Perhaps the idea will gain some traction in the coming decades, though. I suppose I wouldn’t mind extending the boundaries of our official downtown so we can beat Chicago’s downtown residential population once and for all.

Last edited by Muinteoir; 08-12-2019 at 03:04 PM..
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