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Old 08-09-2019, 01:36 AM
 
52 posts, read 13,701 times
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But sorry for sounding so antagonistic. My point is I like Boston thank you.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,709,823 times
Reputation: 3500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinese French Italian View Post
I know there's a statue of a woman who was hanged in Boston Common for preaching her version of puritanism above the common interpretation. I forgot her name maybe it was Ann or something.

I consider modern America an insane mess because it continues to wage war over hyper ideology like "democracy" or "freedom" when literally millions of it's own people are uneducated and impoverished. Taking care of a country as big as America is already a big job and still the government is building bases and interfering in the rest of the world's business as if it can't be satiated. I just think it's insane. Of course I'm not white, I didn't grow up on a farm in Wyoming punching my way to the White House like Dick Cheney or what have you. So for those people the myth of America works but for a child of immigrants like me America is just an insane religion but of course I'll try to live peacefully with it's adherents...
That's not the woman I was thinking of.

Her name was Mary Dyer. She knew Anne Hutchinson (which is the woman you're thinking of), but the Puritans merely excommunicated Hutchinson and banished her from the colony for her departure from Puritan orthodoxy, while they hanged Dyer in 1660 for espousing and publicly affirming her Quaker faith.

A supporter of religious freedom commissioned the statue of her that sits next to one of the main State House entrances in 1959. A copy of that statue sits at the entrance to the Friends Center in the first city of the colony Quaker William Penn established in 1682 so that his fellow believers - and others who departed from English religious orthodoxy - could freely practice their faith.

The Friends Center and the Philadelphia Yearly Meeting are as close as the Religious Society of Friends gets to having a central authority. (It's not that easy to submit to authority from without when you practice a faith that believes that God resides within you.)

I understand what you mean by "mess" now. As a member of the group descended from the only immigrants who came to America against their will,* my beefs with the country may be somewhat different from yours, but what I do appreciate (and you may not see) is that the country's founding creeds made it difficult and ultimately untenable to perpetuate the system that brought our ancestors here. (Even some of that system's beneficiaries and defenders understood the hypocrisy even then, which is why I discount arguments that criticizing them for thelr slaveholding is "judging them by the standards of our time." They were being judged by the standards of their time as long ago as 1688, when the German Pietists who settled in what's now a neighborhood in northwest Philadelphia petitioned the authorities to do away with slavery.)

I hear "mess," however, and I think "disorder." I guess that does describe the situation in those hot spots we keep trying to police, but in light of your professed admiration of the Puritans (over the more tolerant Quakers), I read something completely different into that statement, namely, a belief in supporting one orthodoxy above all other viewpoints - and suppressing and persecuting the holders of those dissenting views.

Which is what the government of the People's Republic of China tries to do to its citizens - and threatens to do to the citizens of the one part of China where they promised they would not try that. You did emigrate here from there with your parents, right? Might that have had something to do with their decision to leave?

*I don't put the prisoners sentenced by British magistrates to banishment to Georgia in the same category. They could, and did, erect their own free society, just as their later counterparts in Australia did.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:13 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
5,551 posts, read 2,709,823 times
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A footnote to what I just wrote:

If your beef with America is its meddling in the affairs of the rest of the world, you should be a fan not of the Puritans but of the tolerant - and pacifist - Quakers.

You live in the Puritan Commonwealth. I live in the Quaker one.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:19 AM
 
9,932 posts, read 5,629,379 times
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Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
I don't even know about this. We have the entire Valley Forge National Park with replications, reenactments, and some as-close-to-original buildings, including an original dwelling of George Washington.

For whatever reason, your "average, everyday American" associates Boston with the Boston Tea Party, but everyone forgets that Philadelphia is the "Birthplace of America." I was just telling an out of towner about it, and he didn't even believe me until he looked it up himself.
No, not everyone forgets that. Don't think the tons of tourists who are in Old City are forgetting it.

Well, we don't teach civics universally anymore so I shouldn't be surprised about that person's ignorance.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:13 PM
 
52 posts, read 13,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
That's not the woman I was thinking of.
I understand what you mean by "mess" now. As a member of the group descended from the only immigrants who came to America against their will,* my beefs with the country may be somewhat different from yours, but what I do appreciate (and you may not see) is that the country's founding creeds made it difficult and ultimately untenable to perpetuate the system that brought our ancestors here. ....

I hear "mess," however, and I think "disorder." I guess that does describe the situation in those hot spots we keep trying to police, but in light of your professed admiration of the Puritans (over the more tolerant Quakers), I read something completely different into that statement, namely, a belief in supporting one orthodoxy above all other viewpoints - and suppressing and persecuting the holders of those dissenting views.

Which is what the government of the People's Republic of China tries to do to its citizens - and threatens to do to the citizens of the one part of China where they promised they would not try that. You did emigrate here from there with your parents, right? Might that have had something to do with their decision to leave?
Ok I confess my knowledge of history is MUCH less then yours and so I concede you have a richer understanding of what is "America" and what it stands for.

I was born in America so I didn't decide to leave China like my parents. They left China in 1989 because they thought life was better in America. And also because the debacle of the Tiananmen protests made them feel targeted as students of western literature.

However growing up in America, (Specifically Seattle/Bellevue), I see it in a different light from my parents. My main characterization of the country's ethos is that it is INSANE. In some ways I think the stubbornness of the PRC or the Puritans is almost preferable to the zealous crusading of a country that is literally trying to reform and re-educate THE ENTIRE PLANET!

To me somewhere more stuck in the past like Boston or Europe just seems easier and calmer.

But I guess everything in moderation. I'm sure the Puritans or Europeans have plenty of dark sides. And I definitely don't blame the Quakers. They don't deserve my diatribe. My main beef was against the revolutionaries and the whole "Give me liberty or give me death!" insanity.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:20 PM
 
52 posts, read 13,701 times
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I know that Pennsylvania was the first German heavy colony of America with a bunch of Lutherans and William Penn. Compared to Boston, New York and Philadelphia were much more multi-cultural and open minded so I applaud those two cities.

I think my antagonism is more directed at D.C. not any of the old school colonial cities like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia. I'm sorry if it felt like I was attacking Pennsylvania.
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Old 08-09-2019, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Rhode Island
7,093 posts, read 11,395,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
Boston voices were critical from 1763-1776. Other colonies, with the exception of Georgia and to some extent Rhode Island, joined in along the way.
Rhode Island independence was declared two months before the other 12 colonies got around to formally breaking ties with King George III. On May 4, 1776, the General Assembly of the Colony of Rhode Island declared its absolute independence from Great Britain.
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Old 08-09-2019, 06:10 PM
 
2 posts, read 557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinese French Italian View Post
I like Boston more because I like the history of the early Puritans over the revolutionaries. I think they had a better more pure culture than the revolutionary mid-Atlantic colonies that led to the mess of modern day America. Also I did not like American history class so that's playing into my response. As a Chinese American I prefer to cherry pick America for the parts I like and abandon the rest of the country.
Well, at least you're honest about it. Kudos.
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Old 08-09-2019, 07:48 PM
 
557 posts, read 404,006 times
Reputation: 533
[quote=Chinese French Italian;55888258]I know there's a statue of a woman who was hanged in Boston Common for preaching her version of puritanism above the common interpretation. I forgot her name maybe it was Ann or something.

I consider modern America an insane mess because it continues to wage war over hyper ideology like "democracy" or "freedom" when literally millions of it's own people are uneducated and impoverished. Taking care of a country as big as America is already a big job and still the government is building bases and interfering in the rest of the world's business as if it can't be satiated. I just think it's insane. Of course I'm not white, I didn't grow up on a farm in Wyoming punching my way to the White House like Dick Cheney or what have you. So for those people the myth of America works but for a child of immigrants like me America is just an insane religion but of course I'll try to live peacefully with it's adherents...[/QUOTE

Well, it’s easy to point fingers... but not when you put China in your username. You do realize that China treats its citizens like indentured disposal servants correct? The human rights abuses are absolutely horrifying. Italy is basically trying to drown migrants so they don’t have to take anymore in. And France? Good luck trying your hand there as an Asian.

Although I’m going to assume you’re not completely ignorant of modern day situations, and do actually know all of this. I guess this would explain why you currently live in the United States of America, a country that accepted you and your family. Just out of curiosity, why don’t you leave the US to one of your native countries?
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:38 PM
 
52 posts, read 13,701 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennsport View Post
Well, it’s easy to point fingers... but not when you put China in your username. You do realize that China treats its citizens like indentured disposal servants correct? The human rights abuses are absolutely horrifying. Italy is basically trying to drown migrants so they don’t have to take anymore in. And France? Good luck trying your hand there as an Asian.

Although I’m going to assume you’re not completely ignorant of modern day situations, and do actually know all of this. I guess this would explain why you currently live in the United States of America, a country that accepted you and your family. Just out of curiosity, why don’t you leave the US to one of your native countries?
I'm sorry for making this thread political. I know America is a great country. I'm just daydreaming about life elsewhere that's all.
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