Philadelphia's next hot neighborhood? (Reading, Exton: 2009, apartment, condos)

[solibs]

Originally Posted by pman

the OP used JUNGA, but it's irrelevant what it wactually is, it's still stupid.

I'm aware that it's written as one word, I wrote it that way to emphasize what it's saying.

it's still the historically correct name, it dates to the 1700's while pennsport is a realtors creation since southwark didn't have a great reputation

Popular Philadelphia Neighborhood Names and Histories

Southwark, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was just commenting on JUNGA as an FYI - and JuNOGi is the kind of garbage that realtors come up with when they try to name a place.

That website is less than convincing. They also claim that Bella Vista was a term coined by realtors. BV Town Watch has been around, using that name, before any realtor knew where it was.

I agree with the assessment of Ridge being a major barrier. BTW, Francisville is NOT bordered by the Inky building which is south of spring garden st but by spring garden which has developed into a nice neighborhood. to the west it's bordered by fairmount. the "extreme ghetto" to the north is more likely to be developed before brewerytown, IMO, because brewerytown is bordered by strawberry mansion (the poorest neighborhood in a poor city), projects to the east.

This is just quibbling since, in essence, we agree with the general area and are just arguing over the 'how soon' part but . . .

The part of Francisville between Corinthian and 19th is already pretty well developed, it's just been slow getting deeper into Francisville and will take a little while longer to get across Ridge Ave.

I hear what you're saying about Strawberry Mansion being rough but it's cut off from Brewerytown by the Northeast Corridor. That's a pretty major barrier. The area around Thompson, Master and Jefferson will keep on progressing.

That area east of Ridge, there's just far too much HOPE VI/PHA stuff that looks terribly suburban for me to expect to see a lot of private investment. If Temple comes in with student housing that's just going to make it worse.

I'm not saying that I don't think anything will happen there - I just don't have high expectations.

[pman]

brewerytown is also cut off from the park by the NEC.
Bella Vista is a name coined by realtors, just a while ago. sounds more upscale than South philly no?

[solibs]

Originally Posted by pman

brewerytown is also cut off from the park by the NEC.

Girard Ave. gets you there. Places in Fairmount are just as cut off by the city branch tracks.

Bella Vista is a name coined by realtors, just a while ago. sounds more upscale than South philly no?

You can say it was realtors, I can say it was the residents. Neither of us can verify it so we can agree to disagree.

[I'd love to travel]

Originally Posted by pman

hmm. so libs, Penn's Port is a realtor name, the historical name, IMO, is better (southwark)...or am I confusing that with queen village? anyways, francisville isn't exactly a new name nor is it obnoxious like wannabe NY JUNGA

francisville is not huge nor is it that bad (like strawberry mansion). some parts are better than others. I see the pace of change highly dependent on the approved development for the entire block north of the park in spring 2010. the western portion of the neighborhood is Bache Martin, which may or may not turn around. the southeastern portion is Ben Franklin and Waring, the northern portion is Vaux. properties close to Broad and Girard are going student, gentrifiers are moving in along fairmount ave and east from fairmount. I think within five years you'll see a large difference. the main problem is the commercial district (or what used to be) on ridge is the worst part of the neighborhood. it's a short walk from the movie theater on Broad and the new Fresh Grocer, the trolley takes you to the piazza and the subway to center city and ballgames. we're a couple and are already going there. ten years ago the area SOUTH of fairmount ave was a dump. will it be hot? probably not, but we'll see what happens on north broad st. as for brewerytown, it shows the conceit of NTI. demolishing wholesale doesn't fix the problem. the area will change faster once west girard becomes a more desirable commercial strip

What does NTI mean ?

[solibs]

Originally Posted by I'd love to travel

What does NTI mean ?

Neighborhood Transformation Initiative. It was a bundle of programs put together under the Street administration to really improve quality of life in neighborhoods as yet untouched by redevelopment.

It involved the demolition of a lot of abandoned housing - some of it in relatively good shape, pulling some 10,000 abandoned cars off the streets, and the construction of a lot of new subsidized (but otherwise for sale) housing.

I have mixed feelings about it, more about the way it was carried out than the idea of it.

[Commuting North]

Well, I'm still not convinced about the potential for either Francisville or Brewerytown, but I hope I'm wrong. What are everyone's thoughts about the Loft Disctrict? As most on this board already know, that area went through a resurrgence during the real estate boom, but has since been very quiet. IMO, it's got great possibilities b/c of location, but I have yet to find someone that talks positively about it -- even current and former residents.

[solibs]

The problem with the loft district is that no one lives around it and not enough people live in it. You need a critical mass of people to support the basic amenities that make a neighborhood worth living in. It's no fun living in the city if you always have to travel to go to a restaurant, a bar, the pharmacy, the grocery store, etc.

When the Reading Viaduct becomes a linear park that neighborhood will take off, until then I don't see it. It's not a rowhouse neighborhood so it's not like things there can happen organically with lots of small, individual investments. You need what Jane Jacobs called "cataclysmic money" because everything to do there is a big money project.

Like I said, Francisville is already happening 858 N 20th St, Philadelphia, PA 19130 - Zillow

all you have to do is look on zillow at the history of sales there to see what's happening. Developers and DYI rehabbers work on the margins because that's where the rewards are. That point isn't hard to figure out but what's harder to see is that the growth is going to go somewhere. Maybe you're saying that it's going to go someplace else - and that's certainly valid.

My educated guess tells me that things in South Philly are going to move at the quickest pace with West Philly in 2nd, the river wards in 3rd and the northern fringe along Girard (to include Brewerytown and Francisville) will move the slowest, but it's still moving.

Lots of people don't see the potential for up and coming neighborhoods until Craig LaBan is slapping them in the face with it. And at that point it's too late. I have a friend who lives just below Fitzwater in QV. A lot of our mutual friends have all moved to the same neighborhood in South Philly. He's going to wind up paying 50% more for his house than the rest of us did because he's just now starting to see it. You don't have too many major american cities where kids 4 or 5 years out of college are buying houses. First time buyers can't afford $300k and $400k houses. Some will just sit out the market until they can afford those houses because they're too good to not live in a neighborhood with a prestige name. But they're in the minority (and as prices keep rising while they're waiting they usually wind up settling on a "lesser" neighborhood anyway).

Take Broad St., for example, the houses on 13th St. are easily $100k more than the houses on 15th St. If you look at Washington Ave. it's even more exaggerated. The market won't support those sorts of steep gradients for long, in other words, people have already "crossed the tracks" taken a look around, laughed and said, "this is what people are so scared of? I can have 6 bedrooms and 2200 s/f here for the same price I can get 3 bedrooms and 1100 s/f over there?" In the last two years my neighborhood has exploded with people who had no problem making that decision.

[Commuting North]

Right, I hear you and agree that gentrification is definitely underway in the border sections of Francisville. I'm talking about the entire area getting gentrified (like Northern Liberties), and I don't see the potential for that. Too many bad surroundings with a lack of natural barriers. I haven't seen evidence that Girard Ave. up that way (where the street narrows significantly) will play the role of barrier as it does further East. Additionally, that huge shelter/soup kitchen and clincs near and around Broad and Fairmount not to mention PHA housing scattered throughout Francisville, aren't going anywhere for quite some time. It would be nice if they rehabbed that huge building on the corner of Broad and Fairmount (used to be a hotel in early 1900s, then was used as lodging for Nuns I believe), but that's sat vacant for decades now.

I can see Francisville becoming a block by block situation, but I don't see it becoming gentrified to the point that it becomes a destination neighborhood.

[pman]

Originally Posted by solibs

Girard Ave. gets you there. Places in Fairmount are just as cut off by the city branch tracks.

not really, city branch isn't much of a barrieer at all, and fairmount is oriented south towards the museum, parkway, and park. just sayin. it's not insurmountable but the barrier is greater in brewerytown until you reach strawberry mansion. there's also more violence in brewerytown than francisville. on one hand, francisville is much easier to get to center city than brewerytown, OTOH, brewerytown is much more convenient to 76.

Originally Posted by solibs

You can say it was realtors, I can say it was the residents. Neither of us can verify it so we can agree to disagree.

I was right about pennsport, not sure how you can disagree there. the area was obviously called southwark for a long time. I used to think the way you do until I discovered the truth about some neighborhood names. southwark makes a lot of sense. it was an area just to the south of central London (or The City). why the heck would Italian immigrants name an immigrant neighborhood "beautiful sight?" It wasn't always the quiet upper class enclave it is today.
here, proof

Origin of name: The name is Italian and means "pretty view." Real-estate agents dubbed it Bella Vista as a selling point because many dwellings have views of the Center City skyline and Ben Franklin Bridge. "Of course there are other people out there who might try to claim they stamped that name on our community, but it was actually Realtors," says lifelong resident Vern Anastasio.

The place where you live - Oct 7, 2004 - South Philly Review#

[solibs]

Originally Posted by Commuting North

I haven't seen evidence that Girard Ave. up that way (where the street narrows significantly) will play the role of barrier as it does further East.

No, but Girard College and that giant stone wall do a pretty good job of it. Seriously though, a small commercial main st. like Girard can swing both ways. From what I've seen happening it usually winds up becoming the center of redevelopment as opposed to a barrier. But you make a good point and that's why I think things there will move slowly going north but I definitely think that Francisville will fill out to Broad St. It's all about that gradient and price per square foot.

Additionally, that huge shelter/soup kitchen and clincs near and around Broad and Fairmount not to mention PHA housing scattered throughout Francisville, aren't going anywhere for quite some time.

The homeless services are outrageous . . . but their impact has as much to do with the way they are funded (having to shut down in the middle of the day and put everyone out on the street) as it does with their actual presence.

I can see Francisville becoming a block by block situation, but I don't see it becoming gentrified to the point that it becomes a destination neighborhood.

No, it'll never be a NoLibs but it could be more like EPX. A place I'd go a few times a year for a change of pace - or maybe more often since it's a short subway ride for me. Or even Baltimore Ave. The only time I go there is when I have a craving for Ethiopian food . . . which is usually twice a year (or about now since i'm talking about it) and i'm sure i'm not alone in that.