New Rail & Transit Projects in SE PA and Philly (Philadelphia: live in, price)
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Won't get done and public opinion is not in favor of these projects, including the Reading Branch restoration. That's what shot down the last proposal a couple of years ago. I agree the extension needs to be made though, but not by SEPTA. Since SEPTA wants to extend commuter rail to Reading it inflates the cost. Restoration, for instance, of service to West Chester or Newtown makes more sense as commuter rail. SEPTA's insistence on running more extensive and more frequent trains has hobbled their ability to expand at all. At this rate agencies servicing metro New York will start to expand into PA before SEPTA sees one completed expansion to their system. You also have to take into account that SEPTA is notoriously anti-rail to begin with. They prefer buses. IMO inter-city service like that should be run as the line between Philadelphia and Harrisburg is already run by Amtrak. In fact, I'd rather see Amtrak restore service to Reading than SEPTA since I think they would be restoring service on an inter-city paradigm that has a much higher chance of being realized, as well as would better serve the Reading market for rail travel. Only a few thousand people commute from Reading to the I-76 corridor and Philadelphia, so commuter rail is really unnecessary. Most of those commuters on the 422 corridor are mainly leaving from a suburban development in the exurbs to a suburban office park in the suburbs, so they're not the best market for linking with rail transit which needs dense development on at least one end to be attractive to commuters. Which is why I think inter-city service as run by Amtrak is a better paradigm, and it allows for an entity to pick up service that already has the existing equipment (SEPTA would have to buy all new diesel push-pull or MU equipment). In fact, Amtrak has run charter trains to Reading in the past via Harrisburg and Lebannon over NS's trackage. Service could be extended from Harrisburg to Lebannon, Reading, Allentown, Bethlehem, and then on to New Jersey and New York all along existing track.
I hear what you are saying about the "inter-city" concept vs. the "regional rail" concept. I hear it loud and clear and I think you are right. You are also correct that SEPTA's insistence to want to expand to Reading inflates the cost. I'm all for improving the City of Reading but there is absolutely benefit to extending the "regional rail" concept out to Pottstown. I'd call it a game-change for the Collegeville/Limerick area, where I happen to live. Right now to get into the city for anything is difficult. The idea that any of the several hundred thousand people (and growing) who live in this area might someday soon be able to drive to Royersford or Phoenixville, get on the train and take it to CC is huge. Thing about it - it's a game-changer. The last time the 422 corridor had good rail access, 422 wasn't built, the only thing here was the boroughs (C-Ville, Trappe, RoFo, P-Ville, Linfield, Pottstown, etc) and farmland and there was no congestion.
You are correct when you say that most people along the 422 corridor drive to work in a suburban area - I'm one of them. But the projected ridership of extended service to Pottstown, or Reading, is like 5-7k per day, not 100,000 per day. Not everyone is all of a sudden going to take the train just because it's there - it's the rail link to the city that is hugely important. Extending service to Reading isn't going to make the congestion on 422 disappear but it will help somewhat and it will provide for more smart-growth and TOD opportunities. Even the O'Neill apartment development in Audubon by the river was designed in consideration of the Port Kennedy train station across the river (within walking distance). The idea is that people can walk to the train from the complex by taking the 422 bridge (and, eventually, the pedestrian-only replacement to the Betzwood Bridge). These are not pie-in-the sky, impossible ideas. These are good ideas and it's nice to know that people around here are thinking about them. Considering this region was at the forefront of the formation and building of this country's infrastructure, we have certainly fallen back.
Philadelphia-to-Reading does seem more like an AmTrak concept but Philadelphia-to-Pottstown is a regional rail concept and it's unfortunate that in this region this service has not been restored. It's actually almost laughable considering the size of the region and the fact that the rail line and the stations are just sitting there, underutilized.
Check out this link to a nice Wikipedia article about the failed Schuylkill Valley Metro. That $2.2B plan was pie-in-the sky nonsense.
This important quote is right from the article and hits at the crux of this issue:
Quote:
Noted transit expert John Pawson, author of Delaware Valley Rails: The Railroads and Rail Transit Lines of the Philadelphia Area, made a pointed argument as to why the SVM has continually been pushed by elected officials given its many obstalces. In a November 2010 communication sent to the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission Regional Citizens Committee, Pawson stated the following:
“Tax policy and political ideology should not distort and stifle the rail system. Other major metropolitan areas that enjoy radial commuter rail services are gradually extending their networks. We have been stymied by planned absurdities such as the Schuylkill Valley and Cross County Metros that are political constructs.
---------------------
Why does the Norristown line stop at 19.5 miles when there is development out to 40 miles? It's absurd. And it's easy to fix this. Other regions get $ to expand their networks; why can't we? (Answer: we can). State Rep and anti-toll crusader Mike Vereb got his 5 minutes of fame by lambasting the tolling concept, but I don't believe he ever came out and said he was against the restoration of rail service - only a moron would say such a thing.
Marius - The public is not against restoration of rail service. They are simply against paying tolls to do so. While I would not have minded paying $2 per day to save gas, and, even more importantly 45 minutes per day by sitting in less traffic, other people feel differently, and are led to slaughter by their brainless, visionless, gutless politicians.
To use your words, "only a few thousand" people use certain of the regional rail now but that certainly doesn't mean they should be shut down. So even if only a few thousand per day will commute from the 422 corridor that does not mean it isn't a great idea.
Also, SEPTA management is not nearly as dumb as they were 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. They just won that award (best US public transportation system) and one of the reasons is because their management has come a long long way. They are foolish if they are anti-rail because from what I know the regional rails are more self-sufficient, and growing. There is some anti-train sentiment in the burbs but I know of no townships/boroughs along the 422 corridor who flat-out don't want to extend service to Reading. The fact that local municipalities are approving TOD-like developments is a good sign because they are thinking of this as well. 20 years is much too long to wait for the restoration of rail, considering it's been talked about for the last 20.
Last edited by toobusytoday; 08-20-2012 at 10:27 AM..
Reason: link and SNIPPET please
I hear what you are saying about the "inter-city" concept vs. the "regional rail" concept. I hear it loud and clear and I think you are right. You are also correct that SEPTA's insistence to want to expand to Reading inflates the cost. I'm all for improving the City of Reading but there is absolutely benefit to extending the "regional rail" concept out to Pottstown. I'd call it a game-change for the Collegeville/Limerick area, where I happen to live. Right now to get into the city for anything is difficult. The idea that any of the several hundred thousand people (and growing) who live in this area might someday soon be able to drive to Royersford or Phoenixville, get on the train and take it to CC is huge. Thing about it - it's a game-changer. The last time the 422 corridor had good rail access, 422 wasn't built, the only thing here was the boroughs (C-Ville, Trappe, RoFo, P-Ville, Linfield, Pottstown, etc) and farmland and there was no congestion.
You are correct when you say that most people along the 422 corridor drive to work in a suburban area - I'm one of them. But the projected ridership of extended service to Pottstown, or Reading, is like 5-7k per day, not 100,000 per day. Not everyone is all of a sudden going to take the train just because it's there - it's the rail link to the city that is hugely important. Extending service to Reading isn't going to make the congestion on 422 disappear but it will help somewhat and it will provide for more smart-growth and TOD opportunities. Even the O'Neill apartment development in Audubon by the river was designed in consideration of the Port Kennedy train station across the river (within walking distance). The idea is that people can walk to the train from the complex by taking the 422 bridge (and, eventually, the pedestrian-only replacement to the Betzwood Bridge). These are not pie-in-the sky, impossible ideas. These are good ideas and it's nice to know that people around here are thinking about them. Considering this region was at the forefront of the formation and building of this country's infrastructure, we have certainly fallen back.
Philadelphia-to-Reading does seem more like an AmTrak concept but Philadelphia-to-Pottstown is a regional rail concept and it's unfortunate that in this region this service has not been restored. It's actually almost laughable considering the size of the region and the fact that the rail line and the stations are just sitting there, underutilized.
Check out this link to a nice Wikipedia article about the failed Schuylkill Valley Metro. That $2.2B plan was pie-in-the sky nonsense.
This important quote is right from the article and hits at the crux of this issue:
Quote:
Noted transit expert John Pawson, author of Delaware Valley Rails: The Railroads and Rail Transit Lines of the Philadelphia Area, made a pointed argument as to why the SVM has continually been pushed by elected officials given its many obstalces. In a November 2010 communication sent to the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission Regional Citizens Committee, Pawson stated the following:
“Tax policy and political ideology should not distort and stifle the rail system. Other major metropolitan areas that enjoy radial commuter rail services are gradually extending their networks. We have been stymied by planned absurdities such as the Schuylkill Valley and Cross County Metros that are political constructs.
---------------------
Why does the Norristown line stop at 19.5 miles when there is development out to 40 miles? It's absurd. And it's easy to fix this. Other regions get $ to expand their networks; why can't we? (Answer: we can). State Rep and anti-toll crusader Mike Vereb got his 5 minutes of fame by lambasting the tolling concept, but I don't believe he ever came out and said he was against the restoration of rail service - only a moron would say such a thing.
Marius - The public is not against restoration of rail service. They are simply against paying tolls to do so. While I would not have minded paying $2 per day to save gas, and, even more importantly 45 minutes per day by sitting in less traffic, other people feel differently, and are led to slaughter by their brainless, visionless, gutless politicians.
To use your words, "only a few thousand" people use certain of the regional rail now but that certainly doesn't mean they should be shut down. So even if only a few thousand per day will commute from the 422 corridor that does not mean it isn't a great idea.
Also, SEPTA management is not nearly as dumb as they were 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. They just won that award (best US public transportation system) and one of the reasons is because their management has come a long long way. They are foolish if they are anti-rail because from what I know the regional rails are more self-sufficient, and growing. There is some anti-train sentiment in the burbs but I know of no townships/boroughs along the 422 corridor who flat-out don't want to extend service to Reading. The fact that local municipalities are approving TOD-like developments is a good sign because they are thinking of this as well. 20 years is much too long to wait for the restoration of rail, considering it's been talked about for the last 20.
While I agree there is demand out the 422 corrider why not try to build/fix infrastructure that is most beneficial to whole. I posted a route that extends a spur of the BSL subway with a high speed (better headway) line out to the KOP area. To me it might make more sense to continue the 422 corrider with a light rail option that can also serve the 202 corrider from say Great valley (maybe even exton) down to Norristown or even into Ft Wash. This can have a link with a new heavy rail extension that uses the row along the Norristown RR line (which in my fantasy map would no longer run but link to the Norristown high speed line at Gulf mills) and connect with in the KOP area. Also a light rail could also link with the 100 line in Norristown. The light rail may give better access to actual job centers along the 202 corrider and up 422 plus a resident commuter access to the a new Heavey rail line. I think TOD is better available under this plan IMHO. This whole western area (with a ton of jobs and resdients) is significantly under covered. Assuming some decent headways a light rail link from say the collegeville town center could get with one transfer to CC in under an hour, not bad as a commuter option and creating better additional connectivty along the 202 and 422 corrider.
Lastly for this to realistically work Montco residents may have to augment some of the bill. Probably a .25% income tax would more than cover it including the heavy rail additionas from the BSL.
So probably still a fantasy...
Last edited by toobusytoday; 08-21-2012 at 07:26 AM..
While I agree there is demand out the 422 corrider why not try to build/fix infrastructure that is most beneficial to whole. I posted a route that extends a spur of the BSL subway with a high speed (better headway) line out to the KOP area. To me it might make more sense to continue the 422 corrider with a light rail option that can also serve the 202 corrider from say Great valley (maybe even exton) down to Norristown or even into Ft Wash. This can have a link with a new heavy rail extension that uses the row along the Norristown RR line (which in my fantasy map would no longer run but link to the Norristown high speed line at Gulf mills) and connect with in the KOP area. Also a light rail could also link with the 100 line in Norristown. The light rail may give better access to actual job centers along the 202 corrider and up 422 plus a resident commuter access to the a new Heavey rail line. I think TOD is better available under this plan IMHO. This whole western area (with a ton of jobs and resdients) is significantly under covered. Assuming some decent headways a light rail link from say the collegeville town center could get with one transfer to CC in under an hour, not bad as a commuter option and creating better additional connectivty along the 202 and 422 corrider.
Lastly for this to realistically work Montco residents may have to augment some of the bill. Probably a .25% income tax would more than cover it including the heavy rail additionas from the BSL.
So probably still a fantasy...
I like your idea and I agree that a simple restoration to Reading leaves gaps but it's feasible because there's nothing extraordinary, radical, or overly expensive. IMO the ideas that win out will be those that are not pie-in-the-sky.
All the more reason to allow an agency like Amtrak to take over inter-city service. Bring in somebody who has no skin in the game like SEPTA and the local governments do.
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Avon Road
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Walter Rand Transportation ctr
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Aquarium
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Red Lion Road
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Ellsworth–Federal
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Snyder
Oregon
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52nd & West Jefferson Street
West Philadelphia Transit Center
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City Branch Trolley Girard Av & 63rd St
(Continues along Route 15 intill Girard Av & 33rd St) Sedgley Dr
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(S-Curves onto Callowhill Street) Callowhill & Ridge Ave
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Delsea Drive
Morton Ave
Rosenhayn Ave
Downtown Bridgeton
All the more reason to allow an agency like Amtrak to take over inter-city service. Bring in somebody who has no skin in the game like SEPTA and the local governments do.
You mean like the Keystone Service. Amtrak is going to run the Lehigh & Lackawanna Services aside from some NJT service with the first stops in PA.
You mean like the Keystone Service. Amtrak is going to run the Lehigh & Lackawanna Services aside from some NJT service with the first stops in PA.
Something like this, and it should be done soon. It's ludicrous that the Lehigh Valley will get service to New York and not Philadelphia. That the Lehigh Valley should fall under New York's sphere of influence just goes to show how backwards and insular SEPTA has become. They're a small time city transit agency when what we need for suburban commuter service is a real railroad.
Something like this, and it should be done soon. It's ludicrous that the Lehigh Valley will get service to New York and not Philadelphia. That the Lehigh Valley should fall under New York's sphere of influence just goes to show how backwards and insular SEPTA has become. They're a small time city transit agency when what we need for suburban commuter service is a real railroad.
Ha! I'll agree with that. SEPTA is definitely backwards/insular/small time, when they could be so much more (kind of like Philadelphia in general).
Ha! I'll agree with that. SEPTA is definitely backwards/insular/small time, when they could be so much more (kind of like Philadelphia in general).
Well, SEPTA isn't bad as a city transit agency, they're just terrible at running a railroad. The two should have been run separately, but the state never wanted to fund rail through PENNDOT so they foisted it off on SEPTA to manage. Now SEPTA has been doing a better job lately, but that's not saying a whole lot given how low they set the bar for themselves in the 80s. It's why I don't think inter-urban service should be SEPTA's game. It's just not what they do best and if you want it done right, go with somebody you know will do it better. This is why I'd rather see Amtrak run interurban service, even if Amtrak is a national network not tied to Philadelphia.
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