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Oh ic , so it would just accelerate new Growth in that area of the city?
Precisely.
Like the Frankford Arsenal before it, the Navy Yard is a former military facility that the city is trying to redevelop for civilian purposes. Another recent addition to the Navy Yard is Tasty Baking Company, which is moving its plant to a brand-new facility there from its old home in Nicetown.
The eastern third of the Navy Yard site is a former military airfield. It hasn't been used for aviation for decades. That's a lot of empty land that could be turned into something else -- but right now, there's no easy way to get to it. The light rail extension shown on the Transport Politic map -- which no local transit or planning agency has yet put on its short list of projects to undertake -- would remedy that.
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Whats the Purpose of the Septa Version of the Roosevelt Subway Spur? And How Many miles is that?
The idea is to extend the single-seat rapid transit ride to City Hall all the way to the Far Northeast. On a local discussion board whose transportation forum I moderate, we've had some back-and-forth discussion on both the merits of this line -- and of running it up the Boulevard* -- and on the A. Merritt Taylor transit plan, most of which remains desirable a century later.
*While Roosevelt Boulevard is the spine of Northeast Philly, it is a supremely pedestrian-hostile thoroughfare. Some have argued that Bustleton Avenue -- which is narrower and more uniformly commercial -- would make a better choice as a route for a BSL Northeast Spur.
Edited to add: I'm not sure about the distance, but I think that the Northeast Spur subway as proposed by the city and SEPTA would be about 8-10 miles long.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 03-20-2010 at 05:50 AM..
I read that forum dude and it was interesting, but I agree with what some say in that I don't see the Northeast sprining for additions to such service for various reasons.
Sort of setting up Bus Rapid Transit corridors in the median ala Bogota's Transmilenio system. I see nothing happening in the NE, theres not the density.
BRT is ok , but it wouldn't work in Philly. Its way to dense , A subway , Light Rail , or streetcar would work. Light Rail cars , at least the new fleet that septa has in store with have 3x the capacity of a bus and be handicapped equipped. The Light Rail / Streetcar replacements with start happening sometime late next year. Even with the recent cuts , alot of people think Septa and Patco will expand. The CSX line and viaduct could be used for future Regional Rail or Rapid Transit Service
waltlantz: The Northeast Spur subway is the Second Avenue Subway of the Philadelphia region. It was part of the original City of Philadelphia plan for a network of subways and elevateds serving every part of the city first submitted in 1913 by then-Director of City Transit A. Merritt Taylor.
The plan envisioned a second east-west, city-owned downtown subway under Chestnut Street, which I always assumed was a protest against the privately built Market Street subway-elevated* because there was no other reason to build it; a tunnel connecting one of the downtown subways to a subway in Camden (superseded by the Ben Franklin Bridge line); a subway-elevated up the Ben Franklin Parkway to 29th Street, over 29th Street to Ridge Avenue, then over Ridge to Roxborough; a north-south Broad Street trunk line from Olney to League Island (Navy Yard) with branches to Germantown and up the Northeast (now Roosevelt) Boulevard; and new extensions and spurs off the Market Street line, one heading to Kensington, Frankford and Mayfair, and the other to Darby via Southwest Philly.
Of these, only the Broad Street trunk and Frankford elevated actually got built -- but of the rest, the Northeast Spur is the only extension that has refused to stay dead. There have been at least three separate attempts to build it since it was first proposed, with the last two -- in the 1950s and 1970s -- coming close to actual construction. Neigborhood objections based partly on racial fear torpedoed the 1950s effort, and Mayor Rizzo aborted the 1970s attempt when then-Transportation Secretary William Coleman told him he could get funding for the Center City commuter tunnel or the Northeast Spur subway but not both. His response, according to an industry insider involved on the former project, was: "Approve the tunnel. We can always come back to the subway in a later phase."
The Northeast subway remains a project both the city and SEPTA wish to pursue, and neighborhood opposition has diminished. As the spine route of the Northeast -- SEPTA's Route 14 bus, which runs up the Boulevard from just above Frankford Transportation Center to Franklin Mills or Neshaminy Mall -- runs articulated buses at close headways in peak hours, and even those are packed, I think there is still a strong case for this line.
*Trivia: of the three US cities that built rapid transit subways prior to World War I, Philadelphia was the only one that left the entire project up to the private operator to finance and complete; Boston's subways were purely public undertakings, and New York's were what we would now call public-private partnerships.
Before SEPTA invests a nickel into expansion it needs to put some work into maintenance and renovation of its existing service. Outside of the three major transit hubs (30th Street/Suburban Station and Market East) the facilities are rundown/falling apart. Additionally frequency of service issues during rush hour need to be addressed in order to increase ridership and subsequently increased revenue. Most of the bus routes which feed subway stations and regional rail lines operate on the same frequency of service at rush hour as they do at other times of the day. Additionally SEPTA operates on the premise that rush hour ends at 8:30am in the morning and 5:30 pm in the evening...in which parallel universe? And then of course there is the archaic ticket purchase "system". SEPTA shouldn't be allowed to do any expansion with tax dollars until they're able to successfully operate within the current system.
I'm not going to claim SEPTA is operating at maximum efficiency, but I think it deserves a little better than that, kyle19125.
Judging from your comments, I'm guessing your experience as a SEPTA rider is confined to Regional Rail. That system certainly needs work outside Center City -- though most of the work that's needed involves things not so readily visible to you, like the power supply system. But the surface transit network -- bus, trolley, and subway-elevated -- has been getting systematic investment over the last two decades that has largely erased an even longer period of deferred maintenance. The Frankford Elevated was rebuilt, with an attractive and well-designed new terminal at its end; the Market Street el has finally been completely replaced a century after it was built, and 69th Street Terminal spruced up; rebuilds of several neglected Broad Street Subway stations are under way, paid for by stimulus funds; and new hybrid buses continue to be added to the fleet.
As for the ticket system, I'm not aware of any metropolitan transit system that has abandoned paper tickets for regional rail riders, though SEPTA did take a step backward when it scrapped its ticket vending machines and at about the same time expanded the fare surcharge so it applied whenever anyone bought a ticket on board the train. In fact, SEPTA's desire to have its new fare technology apply to all its services that has proved to be one stumbling block in implementing it; I suspect that is partly behind the trial balloon floated a few months back about installing turnstiles at the five Center City train stations (the three you mentioned plus Temple University and University City). Of course, the new fare technology project is now slated to halt now that the Feds have once and for all rejected the state's application to toll I-80.
Edited to add: I think if you check the schedules, you will find that peak-hour headways are shorter than midday headways on just about every SEPTA surface and Regional Rail route, at least in the city and closer-in suburbs, but midday ridership on some lines (the 14, e.g.) is such that the differences may not be as large as they are on Regional Rail. The proposal to move from a peak/off-peak to a daytime/nights-and-weekends fare policy for Regional Rail will only take effect July 1, assuming the FY2011 budget is adopted as proposed (probably a safe assumption).
I believe they have plans to reinstall the ticket machines at busy and transfer stations......The New Fleet is slowly arriving and be put together in the Naval Yards and should start replacing the older Septa units next month, the whole entire Septa fleet will be overhauled by 2018. This new fleet has a top speed of 120, but only the R7 Trenton & R5 Thorndale will see the top speed. Also Septa is rumored to do away with the R system and replace it with a naming system?
I believe they have plans to reinstall the ticket machines at busy and transfer stations......The New Fleet is slowly arriving and be put together in the Naval Yards and should start replacing the older Septa units next month, the whole entire Septa fleet will be overhauled by 2018. This new fleet has a top speed of 120, but only the R7 Trenton & R5 Thorndale will see the top speed. Also Septa is rumored to do away with the R system and replace it with a naming system?
Not sure where the buses are getting built in Philly (or are they even? or they're just ordered from elsewhere?) but the rail cars are getting built in a newly refurbished facility in South Philly, not all the way south in the Navy Yard area.
Company to make railcars in S. Phila.: Rotem USA Corp. will have a workforce of 300 to build cars for SEPTA and other transit agencies. | North America > United States from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/labor-sector-performance-labor-force/12056361-1.html - broken link)
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A South Korean firm will build railcars for SEPTA and other transit agencies in a 290,000-square-foot building in South Philadelphia, creating about 300 jobs. Rotem USA Corp., a division of Hyundai Motors Group, had previously planned to build the cars in a former warehouse at the nearby Navy Yard. The new site is bigger and will require less refurbishing, officials said. Rotem will spend about $10 million to improve the site, the company said.The lease, announced yesterday by developer Rimas Properties, is for 20 years, and the plant will house Rotem's U.S. headquarters and employ about 300 workers on an 11.5-acre site on Weccacoe Avenue between Snyder and Oregon Avenues.
The R-designation of SEPTA getting changed has something to do with the fact that SEPTA no longer wants to have through trains past the Center City transit tunnel. Instead, it wants trains to be able to change numbers (destinations) from one side to another. Moderator Cut
Also, SEPTA has started (or plans to start soon?) renovations on some Regional Rail train stations as well, such as at Allens Lane station on Chestnut Hill West line.
Last edited by FindingZen; 04-07-2010 at 07:39 PM..
Reason: sorry, that's a competiting site
The R-numbers ARE being done away with, effective July 1. Trains will still run through the tunnel to destinations on the opposite side, but SEPTA didn't want to leave riders with the impression that the through trains operate as distinct lines; only about one-third of through-routed trains leave Center City on the same R-numbered branch they entered it on (mostly R3s and R5s). I opposed the move, loudly, as did the guy who came up with the numbering scheme, Penn transportation professor Vukan Vuchic. But the sentiment inside the agency was for dropping the numbers for a while now. (One of the SEPTA rail planners who favored the move, it turns out, is a member of the suburban Episcopal church in whose choir I sing. We had a civil conversation on the subject after he put two and two together one Sunday.)
The Rotem USA plant is on Weccacoe Avenue, near Columbus Blvd and Oregon Ave.
solibs: There are two reasons why the Market Street subway tunnel was not extended further west. One is cost. Even with the expense ($750m, IIRC) of rebuilding the el, tunneling would probably have cost half again -- or even twice -- as much.
The other is Mill Creek, which runs just under Market at 46th. There would have to have been some very deep tunneling -- and steep grades -- to run a subway tunnel beneath Mill Creek. (The creek was enclosed in a sewer in 1905. There have been occasional cave-ins since, and the 46th and Market intersection often floods in heavy rains because of the creek beneath.)
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