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Old 07-04-2007, 06:29 AM
Status: "Busy" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Mississippi
6,601 posts, read 8,761,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
GCSTroop wrote:

Now this is going to sound borderline retarded but I wonder how much other animals are able to communicate with each other. I have several birds nests or condos if you will that are located under the eaves of my roof and I don't have the heart to take them out. Anyway, one of them is located by my bedroom. Every morning long before the sun rises they start chirping. On many mornings I've listened carefully to the sounds they were making since afterall, they'd just woken me up and what else did I have to do? I remember one morning when one bird was chirping with a particular set of sounds when suddenly a truck drove by. The chirping stopped until the truck was gone and then the bird started over again with the exact same sounds. This seems to suggest that this bird was trying to communicate something that only another bird would understand, was interrupted, and started over again when the interruption had stopped. Believe me, I know how that sounds but what purpose does this chirping serve from a survival or evolutionary standpoint? If it didn't serve a purpose they wouldn't be doing it. Ok, haul me to the looney bin.
No it doesn't sound retarded to me. I know exactly what you're talking about and NUMEROUS other animals are known for communicating with one another. Whales, Dolhpins and Elephants are a few that come to my mind. Another bit of survival language one animal practices is a beaver (or otter?) smacking it's tail in the water to warn others of danger. I mean, that is clearly a way to communicate and survive. We just did it with our own languages. Now, here's what I always found to be interesting:

You could say a wolf and a dog are pretty closely related. I mean they carry A LOT of the same features and for the most part are very closely related. We have coyotes and wolves around our house and I always found it interesting that when they start howling at night, my dog doesn't even flinch. It's almost like he doesn't even understand a thing. He just pees in the grass. HOWEVER, any dog that barks on TV will automatically be responded to with a bark from my dog. It's like he understands what is going on on TV but he hears a wolf howl on TV and it means nothing. Or if he hears one in real life it means nothing. Now, the coyotes were really close (I'd say within 200 yards of our backyard) the other day and when they started howling my wife and I both jumped into the house and the dog started barking. But, I think that was more a result of our reactions than it was the coyotes barking. Nevertheless, it is great at night to hear them howl away.
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, IN
198 posts, read 680,826 times
Reputation: 111
Sorry to jump in, this looked interesting. I dont think free will is an illusion. I believe that separation (which religions teach we are apart fr God and need to get back to him) and superiority are though. I believe we are equipped in the likeness of God and have free will to do as we choose. Whether those choices are 'good' or 'bad' WE make the distinction of what they are, not God. I do not believe the entire puppet on a string concept. All of our shortcomings are brought about by man/civilization. Many people cited examples regarding free will including normal, routine tasks. Take modern day out of the picture and think back to the original state of how we should be (w/out cars, junk, over stimuli, etc) and how we were once close with nature. Disease, death, famine, hunger, health care issues, etc exist because of MAN, and it is the very same FREE WILL that our society has that caues economic greed, wars, famine, etc. Yet man blames this on the devil and looks toward the Bible-written by people facing the same questions. Yes it sounds kind of lovey dovey, but if man were to wake up tomorrow and make a conscious choice to change, this world would be a better place and not the hell on earth it is. Our problems are not religious ones, every problem in this world is a spiritual one. When man abuses and destroys FREE WILL we get the end result: the modern day world/disaster.
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
954 posts, read 94,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
I believe God is in control of the big picture, but I believe He gives us free will to make our own choices. He knows what we will choose, but does not intervene in those choices.
If he knows what we will choose, how do we have the ability to choose anything other than what he knows we will choose. If your god knows that I will be atheist on the day I die, where is my choice to become a Christian. If I chose Christianity next year then your god's knowledge that I will die atheist is proven wrong!
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,804,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
If he knows what we will choose, how do we have the ability to choose anything other than what he knows we will choose. If your god knows that I will be atheist on the day I die, where is my choice to become a Christian. If I chose Christianity next year then your god's knowledge that I will die atheist is proven wrong!
Oh, Plad, you are saying it is "chicken, egg" when it is really "egg, chicken" or are you Welch guys familiar with that phrase?

God knows our choices because in the realm outside time (where He exists) the choice is being seen as already transpired. That doesn't mean you aren't free to do what you will! Of course, sometimes if YOU do what you will, you may get "sent to the corner" or banned...but I digress!

So if at any time you feel the need to make the choice to become a Christian, feel free to just go right ahead and do so!
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis, IN
198 posts, read 680,826 times
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It is not the KNOWING, it is the being and creating of our free will experiences that exist. It is not like he is a master puppeteer wanting to control us, he wants us to EXPERIENCE life and make choices that reflect ourselves and what we strive to be (our highest truth). It is not about proving him wrong. He knows in advance whatever it is we will do, have done and will change because he is in all of us and our concept of time is not real- so yes, like the last poster mentioned, our lives have already transpired. It is not something that one would easily accept, but if you've been taught your whole life that you are seperate from God and that you are born "bad" for lack of better word, then you wouldnt accept readily the true nature of God and yourself, which has been hidden from us. Here is a fitting quote from Einstein:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,705,933 times
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Don't those of you who are religious feel an obligation to choose the option that we do have free will? Afterall, if there was no free will the religious teachings about choosing to be a Christian and accepting Christ wouldn't even make any sense. I'm open to both options because I've admitted that I don't have enough evidence to make a choice but if you automatically rule out the option that we don't have free will how can you say that you've even made a choice at all?
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,804,925 times
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Default Choices, so many choices....LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Don't those of you who are religious feel an obligation to choose the option that we do have free will? Afterall, if there was no free will the religious teachings about choosing to be a Christian and accepting Christ wouldn't even make any sense. I'm open to both options because I've admitted that I don't have enough evidence to make a choice but if you automatically rule out the option that we don't have free will how can you say that you've even made a choice at all?
I think most of us DID vote for free will, didn't we, MG?

I am now debating the choice to turn off my computer or stay on risking my
husband who is uncharacteristicly sleeping late will soon wake up, realize I'm once again on CD and nag me about my "addiction." Hmmm....what to choose, what to choose?
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,705,933 times
Reputation: 5307
kaykay wrote:
Quote:
I think most of us DID vote for free will, didn't we, MG?
Yes, that's what I mean. The option of no free will is going to automatically be excluded by believers because it doesn't fit into a religious framework.
By the way, is your hubbie really that upset because you spend so much time on the forum? He must have things he likes to do too that take up alot of time. Maybe you need to point some of them out.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,804,925 times
Reputation: 21135
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
kaykay wrote:

Yes, that's what I mean. The option of no free will is going to automatically be excluded by believers because it doesn't fit into a religious framework.
By the way, is your hubbie really that upset because you spend so much time on the forum? He must have things he likes to do too that take up alot of time. Maybe you need to point some of them out.
Well, about my husband, MG, the answer is YES! He has seen the need to "have a little talk with me" about my CD addiction! I suspect next he may be scheduling "an intervention" with some of our friends!

Regarding his "addictions," well, he gave up watching TV about 3 years ago so I can't nag him about that anymore. He does read a lot but so do I ... so I can't really go there! LOL! He is a musician (plays viola and some guitar) but he doesn't ever practice so that's not an issue. He did take up playing the piano several years ago and he practiced a lot on that but he's not doing that anymore. I'm really stumped here.

He does spend a lot of time "surfing the Net" on his Treo (complicated phone which does everything for you except breathe for those unfamiliar with it.)
So I could try nagging about that. But actually he's been better about that lately too... so I'm at a loss here! I'll have to give it some thought. Thanks for the suggestion, MG!

Note: sometimes when you're married, "free will" becomes less of an option! LOL! but in this case, it's worth it IMHO!

Last edited by kaykay; 07-04-2007 at 10:39 AM.. Reason: clarify loss/gain ratio concerning marriage! LOL!
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Plano, Texas
8,640 posts, read 14,804,925 times
Reputation: 21135
I will add, though, MG, that some Christians including "my #1 sparring partner" do NOT really believe in "free will" because they believe so heavily in predestination. They would not see it exactly as you have presented as a possiblility at the molecular level but nonetheless...
Of course, I think that position is totally unscriptural but of course, as an athiest, montana, I doubt you care about that particular debate one way or other!

Happy 4th out in Arizona!
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