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This topic is not going to make any sense to alot of you because free will seems to be self evident. Let me explain by using an example of a "chance" occurance. When someone picks up a pair of dice, shakes them and lets them roll across the table in a casino no one knows what numbers are going to turn up. However if that exact event could be replayed over again with an exact replication of the first event the result would be exactly the same. Now I'm talking about every single factor being the same down to the molecular level. The same exact pressure being applied to the dice with the exact same flip of the wrist, striking the board in precisely the same spot, etc. It just seems like chance because human beings don't have the ability to calculate how their hand movements will alter the outcome or what effect of the surface of the table is going to exert on the dice.
So what I'm getting at is the possibility that all human activity is also being subjected to the laws of physics in such a manner that the outcome is predetermined and that includes the physical and electrical impulses in our own minds. Philosophers have debated this idea for a long time and it is an interesting thought. I'm really not sure what I think about it because free will also seems to exist to me as a matter of common sense but there are those who say it's an illusion. I hope I've explained myself in an understandable way. Any thoughts or opinions?
The christian belief is that God created man and gave him the ability to make choices which to me means free will.
I know I have read that many people actually believe since God knows all things, including the number of hairs on our heads that He knows if we will be with Him in the end or not. I have a problem with that simply because of the fact that he gave us minds to think and choices of what paths our lives will take.
There is the knowledge that God does not make mistakes, so then, how could Adam and Eve sin since God forbade them to eat the apple? He created man and walked with Adam for companionship and would not want him to disobey him, had the ability to make sure he did not disobey Him, but instead, gave Adam and Eve the ability to make the choice from their minds and hearts.
Since the fall of Adam and Eve, we are also born into sin. With that in mind, as we become of an age to understand what it means, we have the ability to choose if we want to continue a life of sin or to submit our will to Christ and become christian. It's a choice : to me it means, do we want to continue the path Adam and Eve were on, or do we want the opportunity to take our lives on the path that was destined for Adam and Eve before sin?
Think of it this way, you write a computer program that is perfect, then along comes a worm that invades it, corrupting it, in order to put this program back on it's original track, you must create a patch to fix it, and then proceed to do so. It is up to the users of the program to accept and download this patch so their program will run as it was designed to do, or they can simply live with the worm still invading it and have problems with it the whole time they use it creating anxiety and lost data that constantly disrupt the process you are trying to use it for. Eventually, the program will be so worm ridden you become tired of using it and delete it to the trash bin.
Now use this same concept with people, God and Christ.
I hope this is a good example to describe how I feel. Still reeling from travel lag.
It is possible, maybe, that free will exists (although I doubt it). If so, I would think it is an emergent property, similar to consciousness, or wetness (in water).
To illustrate, we all know that water is a combination of hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Each on their own is a gas at standard temperature and pressure. Yet combine them in a particular way, and they turn into water. Water has properties that the two component molecules do not have. One of these properties is wetness, and this property is 'emergent'.
Consciousness is an emergent property of the living human brain. Get enough chemicals together in a particular way, and the brain becomes a person. Again, an emergent property. I do not pretend to understand how this works, but it self evidently does.
The question of free will goes one step farther though. Does the emergent property of consciousness include the ability to manipulate matter? Move things? Influence the world around us? Or does it only appear this way? I see no reason to think that it does, so I would have to err on the side of caution, and state that I think free will does not exist.
This topic is not going to make any sense to alot of you because free will seems to be self evident. Let me explain by using an example of a "chance" occurance. When someone picks up a pair of dice, shakes them and lets them roll across the table in a casino no one knows what numbers are going to turn up. However if that exact event could be replayed over again with an exact replication of the first event the result would be exactly the same. Now I'm talking about every single factor being the same down to the molecular level. The same exact pressure being applied to the dice with the exact same flip of the wrist, striking the board in precisely the same spot, etc. It just seems like chance because human beings don't have the ability to calculate how their hand movements will alter the outcome or what effect of the surface of the table is going to exert on the dice.
So what I'm getting at is the possibility that all human activity is also being subjected to the laws of physics in such a manner that the outcome is predetermined and that includes the physical and electrical impulses in our own minds. Philosophers have debated this idea for a long time and it is an interesting thought. I'm really not sure what I think about it because free will also seems to exist to me as a matter of common sense but there are those who say it's an illusion. I hope I've explained myself in an understandable way. Any thoughts or opinions?
I find your question fascinating since you are an athiest. To me, free will is connected directly to the whole "God thing", but I digress...
Everyone that knows me on this forum knows that I think free will is an illusion. We are of course able to make choices all day long, but ultimately, it is God "Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).
Of course, MG, I see this through the prism of my faith, so my answers will reflect that.
Alot of Christians get mad at me when I say all of this, saying to me that they aren't puppets! To this I say, we are obviously and considerably more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do my fellow believers have trouble believing all these Scriptures?
Think of it this way, you write a computer program that is perfect, then along comes a worm that invades it, corrupting it, in order to put this program back on it's original track, you must create a patch to fix it, and then proceed to do so. It is up to the users of the program to accept and download this patch so their program will run as it was designed to do, or they can simply live with the worm still invading it and have problems with it the whole time they use it creating anxiety and lost data that constantly disrupt the process you are trying to use it for. Eventually, the program will be so worm ridden you become tired of using it and delete it to the trash bin.
But god created the worm, and know where it would go, what it would do, etc.
That puts the responsibility of people's choices right back in god's lap.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. . . do you believe you don't have free will? Do you not make a choice to get up every morning? I do.
Is it really a choice? Or are there environmental factors that join up to force this decision upon you?
Stay in bed, and eventually you will get hungry, or have to go to the bathroom. Or you will lose your job because you did not show up. Therefore, your brain works all of this out, and ultimately makes the body get out of bed. Not really a choice, when you consider the environmental factors around you.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at. . . do you believe you don't have free will? Do you not make a choice to get up every morning? I do.
I know what you're saying spunky and it strikes me the same way. What I'm suggesting is that it's quite possible that even those moments when we're considering such things as "do I want to get up and go to work?" is that the very thoughts we're having which appear to be our mind exerting it's power of free will could in itself be predetermined and set on course and our "choice" to get up is really an illusion. I'll admit it's a strange concept and I don't pretend to understand it but it's been a serious topic of discussion for probably hundreds of years.
Is it really a choice? Or are there environmental factors that join up to force this decision upon you?
Stay in bed, and eventually you will get hungry, or have to go to the bathroom. Or you will lose your job because you did not show up. Therefore, your brain works all of this out, and ultimately makes the body get out of bed. Not really a choice, when you consider the environmental factors around you.
Or not. You can just stay in bed and not make the choice to get up and eat or go to the bathroom. The survival drive is strong but it can be over ridden. It's still a choice.
I know what you're saying spunky and it strikes me the same way. What I'm suggesting is that it's quite possible that even those moments when we're considering such things as "do I want to get up and go to work?" is that the very thoughts we're having which appear to be our mind exerting it's power of free will could in itself be predetermined and set on course and our "choice" to get up is really an illusion. I'll admit it's a strange concept and I don't pretend to understand it but it's been a serious topic of discussion for probably hundreds of years.
I'm a runner. Most of the time I choose to get up in the morning to go for my run. There have been mornings that I have turned back over and gone back to sleep. But whenever I do this I regret it. I have never once regretting getting up and going for a run. So now whenever I am tempted to turn over and go back to sleep I think about this, that later on in the day I will be glad I made the choice to put on my sneakers, put a leash on my dog, and head out the door.
This is a choice I make, and though a simplistic example, I use my power of reason to determine it is the right choice. It would be easier to not get up. But because I have the higher reasoning power we humans have I can make this decision.
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