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There had to have been more to human development than mere matter and chance which led to survival. Something must be added from " Outside of man", outside of this closed system, to account for something so different as consciousness.
Why? Atheism aside for a moment, why couldn't god create sentient beings by "growing" them over millions of years until an organism that was capable of awakening their self awareness evolved? Why couldn't sentience be "captured" after a human who was self-aware died? Why does it have to be created before and implanted into a newborn? Then again, why would should it have to survive death? What if the point of the exercise is simply to gather the collective experiences of said sentient organisms?
Maybe such a god would value what an organism had going on it's mind more than the body it inhabits.
True, it's an unprovable suggestion, but we are quite capable of disproving plenty of antiquated notions with science.
I don't know why you folks keep using that line. Humans are primates, apes are primates, there are other species that are primates. We all descended from earlier primates!
I agree that humans are Primates, mammals, but I disagree that we descended from the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes. Explain to me , where can this subjective experience which we introspect upon, this constant companion of hosts of associations , hopes, fears, affections, knowledges, colors, smells, toothaches, thrills, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires --- where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved from an Ape? How can we derive this inner consciousness out of mere matter?
I agree that humans are Primates, mammals, but I disagree that we descended from the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes. Explain to me , where can this subjective experience which we introspect upon, this constant companion of hosts of associations , hopes, fears, affections, knowledges, colors, smells, toothaches, thrills, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires --- where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved from an Ape? How can we derive this inner consciousness out of mere matter?
And if so, When?
Peace.
Evolutionary Psychology.
Many quite brilliant people have asked and answered these questions before. I spent several years studying in in college. It IS possible, you just have to do some learning.
Why? Atheism aside for a moment, why couldn't god create sentient beings by "growing" them over millions of years until an organism that was capable of awakening their self awareness evolved? Why couldn't sentience be "captured" after a human who was self-aware died? Why does it have to be created before and implanted into a newborn? Then again, why would should it have to survive death? What if the point of the exercise is simply to gather the collective experiences of said sentient organisms?
Maybe such a god would value what such and organism had going on it's mind more than the body it inhabits.
True, it's an unprovable suggestion, but we are quite capable of disproving plenty of antiquated notions with science.
Well I do not view humans as " Being grown like a plant", and God himself is what I consider " The Awakening." But I actually agree with one of your suggestions, that of " An excercise", to gather the collective experiences of Primordal man. Now I see a definte possibility there, God could have created Primordal man as a type of predeterminded excercises aimed at our future benefit.
I agree that humans are Primates, mammals, but I disagree that we descended from the idiot hiearchy of speechless apes.
You think? I think that the following sentence presents a excellent example of how far we haven't evolved from our idiot ancestors:
Quote:
where can this subjective experience which we introspect upon, this constant companion of hosts of associations , hopes, fears, affections, knowledges, colors, smells, toothaches, thrills, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires --- where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved from an Ape?
Anyway, we can observe introspection, fears, affection, and knowledge amongst many higher mammals. We also know that many higher mammals and all the great apes can discern colors, smells, toothaches, thrills, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires. We even know that apes, elephants, and dolphins (just to name a few) possess the capacity for self-awareness.
Quote:
How can we derive this inner consciousness out of mere matter?
Is this the, if science doesn't have an answer today that it must be god line of ill-logic? Let me know in advance so that we can both save a lot of bandwidth.
You puzzle me. I could have sworn that you said you 'left religion' a few pages back. So why the God - stuff? Nevertheless, provided you don't get into dismissing unwelcome evidence, you can shoehorn the hand of God in wherever you think it might fit.
Now it's a specialist area, but there are indications of a development through the Palaeolithic of complex trading routes which would imply the need for a developed language. There are even suggestions of a rudimentary symbolic or pictographic script, but that is a still under discussion as is, I suppose, the argument that Basque (and perhaps Aquitanian) is the remains of palaolithic language.
(pay no attention, you can still access this page)
Overlooking the clear development of a culture and technology through the middle to late palaeolithing from a very rudimentary one in the early stone age, I can't see how you can possibly say that the stone age didn't see the development of what we would regard as conscious through from what we might regard as little more than instinct, bearing in mind that even apes have the basics of human social organisation and rudimentary use of tools.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-23-2010 at 01:35 PM..
Is this the, if science doesn't have an answer today that it must be god line of ill-logic? Let me know in advance so that we can both save a lot of bandwidth.
I think science proves many things, it proves God created primordal man , one has to only look at " Fossil records." The fossil record reveals a total absence of multicellular life forms in the lower two thirds of the earths crust. This is referred to as the " Precambrian Period." Then, advanced life appears in abundant numbers during the Cambrian period. This period contains the oldest rocks in which complex fossils are found. The Cambrian sedimentary rock fossils contain many millions of highly advanced and well developed life forms. This is referred to as the " Cambrian Explosion."
In the precambrian period, the fossil record only has sparse, unicellular fossils. In the cambrian period, the fossil record indicates life appeared suddenly in tremendous complexity, great diversity and unbelivable abundance without evolving from any ancestors. Proving that God created it suddenly, it didnot create itself over time.
There is no gradual evolution in the fossil record. If everything developed from the same primordal soup, certainly there would be some very basic creatures that would have existed between the soup and the creatures we are familiar with. Why arn't there any? Where is the connection between unicellular organisms and all other life forms?
I think science proves many things, it proves God created primordal man , one has to only look at " Fossil records." The fossil record reveals a total absence of multicellular life forms in the lower two thirds of the earths crust.
Your information is a bit dated (he says with great charity).
In the precambrian period, the fossil record only has sparse, unicellular fossils. In the cambrian period, the fossil record indicates life appeared suddenly in tremendous complexity, great diversity and unbelivable abundance without evolving from any ancestors. Proving that God created it suddenly, it didnot create itself over time.
Yes, suddenly, like 100 million years of suddenly.
I believe totally that Neanderthals and Cromagnon were humans, and have not stated otherwise, so I do not understand your persistance that I have suggested otherwise. I don't believe they were conscious as we are conscious. They didnot think as we think, I believe they thought more " Animal Like."
Humans are not Apes, apes are not conscious beings. And there is no fossil records of any ape changing into a human being, none! Humans can only breed humans, apes can only breed apes. Evolution cannot come from " Crossbreeding." A horse and A donkey can have a " Mule" if you breed them, but the mule will always be " Sterile" and can never reproduce. It is impossible for two apes to breed and produce a human. Thats just nonsensical. Two humans cannot produce an ape.
But that gets into evolution, the endless belief of many, of which I certainly disagree with. In fact, Primordal man not having consciousness, is just as ignored and unbelieved as creation is. We are being swept with unreason.
Peace.
You say you want to learn, then you discard everything that doesn't fit with your religious views...That is not learning at all.
There is no fossil record of apes changing into humans because we have been members of the ape family for millions of years. Your cross breeding ideas are wrong in a way as well..My parents were both apes, and here I am. Gorillas only breed with gorillas, chimps with chimps, and humans with humans.
You really don't want to learn anything new do you? Seems to me that you are much more comfortable with your religious myths.
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