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Old 05-08-2013, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
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This is a hard one to measure, but how do you feel about this ? Any truth to it? Ever seen any evidence of this? This operates more on a political level?
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Rivendell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
This is a hard one to measure, but how do you feel about this ? Any truth to it? Ever seen any evidence of this? This operates more on a political level?
Are you talking about Christian kind of sin? I don't really understand the question.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
This is a hard one to measure, but how do you feel about this ? Any truth to it? Ever seen any evidence of this? This operates more on a political level?
True in the hazards of life.

Not necessarily true in a philosophical or religious sense is.

For example a man commits a crime and and goes to jail. His children pay the price by loosing the financial support of .their father, but that does not mean they will be punished by God(swt) because their father sinned.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
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After 9/11 I heard someone say: one big payment for the sins of our fathers!

In this sense, it's used in a Presidential sort of way! The sins of our former leaders!
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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The Bible asserts that a sin that you commit will be used to punish your descendants for 7 generations. It reminds me of Eastern concepts of rebirth and reincarnation and karma. Believers in both notions will hasten to tell you that it's not really punishment (Christians don't want god to look like a petty vindictive nitwit and, e.g., Buddhists don't want you to see rebirth as a philosophy of despair and a source of fatalism). They will say it's just natural consequences and they will prescribe some things you can do to circumvent those.

If it's truly a matter of natural consequences I have to provisionally agree, some personal failings are definitely the gift that keeps on giving. The canonical example is that an abused child tends to grow up to commit the same kinds of abuse, almost in spite of themselves or any inner vows they have made to never be like that.

But I don't believe in some immutable law or some divine intergenerational retribution. There is no evidence of that. There is just some cause and effect for some things, some of it weak, some of it (e.g. traumatic abuse) fairly strong.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:24 PM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
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I believe the passage is "The sins of the father are visited upon the sons." This is different from the way you posed the question.
To me this means if your parents don't set a good example, and raise their children right, they pass their own moral, ethical, educational shortcomings on to their children. We see this happen every day. I absolutely believe it is true.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
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I've long pondered this question in reference to the Jews/Hitler/Holocaust.

I read about that period leading up to the Bolshevik Revolution, the widescale emigration of the Jews in the late 1800's out of Russia. The Jews, at that time, were in control of everything, at that time, owned virtually every bar/saloon, liquor store, tenement building in Russia. Not only were they unfair to the natives, but their own kind as well, as there were nasty Jewish ghetto's in Moscow.

Were "payments" made?

I also ponder the white man coming to the U.S. and committing all those sins against the Native Americans, 300 years ago. Are we going to end up making some payments on that some day, or have we already?

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Old 05-11-2013, 08:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
After 9/11 I heard someone say: one big payment for the sins of our fathers!

In this sense, it's used in a Presidential sort of way! The sins of our former leaders!

No. What you referring to is part of destiny. In this case, it is nation's destiny, or destiny of a group of people that are drawn and staying together due to similarities in their thinking.
As a result of their thinking, a group destiny is woven and comes true, or exteriorizes, in form of national disasters, wars, weather cataclisms, revolutions, and so on and so on.
It has nothing to do with presidents as presidents simply piggy back group thinking and drive themselves into that position, by conforming to group thinking, expressed in group's desires.

Someone said: nations have rulers only as bad, as they deserve.

You do not have to be a part of a group destiny. By YOUR thinking, you can remove yourself from that particular thinking pattern. It does not mean that you will surely escape the group destiny. You might. Or, you might escaped it in the next existence. Only your Thinker knows.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Out West
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
This is a hard one to measure, but how do you feel about this ? Any truth to it? Ever seen any evidence of this? This operates more on a political level?
I think some can or do.

One way of looking at it is what the...third? poster pointed out.

The father does something, the offspring can pay for that for the rest of their lives.

As far as what I think you are asking, I have no solid proof but it sure does feel like it some times. There's no way to measure that, though. You can't measure paying for what your father did or their father did or even their father did...it's impossible. But I think/feel, (since this can only be based on opinion now), it most certainly does happen.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Out West
20,595 posts, read 15,415,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
The Bible asserts that a sin that you commit will be used to punish your descendants for 7 generations. It reminds me of Eastern concepts of rebirth and reincarnation and karma. Believers in both notions will hasten to tell you that it's not really punishment (Christians don't want god to look like a petty vindictive nitwit and, e.g., Buddhists don't want you to see rebirth as a philosophy of despair and a source of fatalism). They will say it's just natural consequences and they will prescribe some things you can do to circumvent those.

If it's truly a matter of natural consequences I have to provisionally agree, some personal failings are definitely the gift that keeps on giving. The canonical example is that an abused child tends to grow up to commit the same kinds of abuse, almost in spite of themselves or any inner vows they have made to never be like that.

But I don't believe in some immutable law or some divine intergenerational retribution. There is no evidence of that. There is just some cause and effect for some things, some of it weak, some of it (e.g. traumatic abuse) fairly strong.
Not to go off topic but this is not a truthful statement. No they do not "tend to" do this. Some do, many do not.

Back to the conversation...
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