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Old 05-19-2013, 12:03 PM
 
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Was Thomas Jefferson correct in his assertion that, it is self evident that all men are created equal; and if this is true what other facts are self evident?
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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I think the category of "self evident" falls within the range of concepts like murder and theft being violations of self-evident morality. Interestingly, all the other items in the Ten Commandments were not sufficiently self-evident to be incorporated into criminal law in Jeffersonian America.

Morality itself is a human construct, and addresses only issues that reflect the well-being of members of the human species. As such, things harmful to the human species, if sufficiently well-documented and widely held, were "self evident. It was thought in Jefferson's time that wolves, for example, were immoral, but only because they blew anthropomorphized pigs' houses down and otherwise did not behave consistent with what was seen at the time as human well-being. So a bounty on wolves might have been seen by Jeffersonians as a 'self evident" good, but not at all self-evident by commentators with a more modern grasp of ecology.

So different concepts are seen as self evident at different times and places, but given a prevailing morality or sensitivity, one can be quite right in calling something self evident, even though it might not turn out to be so self evident when seen through another prism. Being self-evident can often mean only that "we all agree on this". Or, to a revolutionary (as Jefferson was), it can just mean "this serves our purposes".

Last edited by jtur88; 05-20-2013 at 07:26 AM..
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:00 PM
 
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Mr. Jtur88:

Can you give me a precise definition of the term self evident?
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:23 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burn6675 View Post
Was Thomas Jefferson correct in his assertion that, it is self evident that all men are created equal; and if this is true what other facts are self evident?
If I had to choose, I would go with a feeling that "nothing is self evident". When people say something like "it's obvious that this is that and this is the truth"... it usually is obvious only to them at that moment. Other people would have to listen to an explanation as to why it's so obvious to that person.

However, an explanation is like focusing your light on a stage on one person and following that person around on the stage and keeping all the other places dark for this moment.

Or maybe it's like drawing a path on a wide surface.

In other words, explanation can make something seem as something. But other people, with other explanations will make it seem as something else.

For example, Christians treat "coincidences" as miracles or answers from God.

Those who believe in laws of attraction see "coincidences" as a result of them thinking positive about this or that and drawing it to themselves.

Those who don't believe in either, just see them as random events which happened by chance.

All of them sound correct to certain individuals and all of them sound incorrect to certain other individuals.
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:36 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
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What is evident to one might not be evident to another.

Last edited by EVAunit1981; 05-21-2013 at 02:46 AM..
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:16 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burn6675 View Post
Was Thomas Jefferson correct in his assertion that, it is self evident that all men are created equal...
That is an incomplete quotation taken out of context.

It was self evident that all men were created equal before the law.
In other words, no one was born "more noble" than another, and above the law.
And the law was that which helped secure rights, by prosecuting deliberate injury to the person or property of another. Ideally, American law did not make any distinction between the status of the victim or the assailant... or their party affiliation or donor status.

However, men may have a status at law that makes them unequal in other ways.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burn6675 View Post
Was Thomas Jefferson correct in his assertion that, it is self evident that all men are created equal; and if this is true what other facts are self evident?

It is false statement and smells of political propaganda.
Simple and basic observation of reality shows clearly that men are born all different. Some are physically more apt or challenged, some are more intellectual and some are plain dumb, some are born into riches and some are found on the street in a basket, etc. As a result, it is illogical to pronounce ALL equal, as we are all born un-equal.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burn6675 View Post
Mr. Jtur88:

Can you give me a precise definition of the term self evident?
I can't even give you precise definitions of 'give' or 'precise' or 'term'.

Whenever I require a precise definition, I usually go to a dictionary. Here:

self-evident
— adj
containing its own evidence or proof without need of further demonstration

Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAunit1981 View Post
What is evident to one might not be evident to another.
Which is exactly why Jefferson said "We hold these truths to be self evident". We, meaning those of us in this room trying to create a republic of laws. He didn't mean to include all of humanity in his "we" for whom he was speaking.

He didn't say "These truths are self evident", he spoke only for the small body of people for whom he was in general agreement. The great genius of the American republic was that Jefferson and others were careful about how they expressed things, and didn't just shoot from the hip.

Last edited by jtur88; 05-22-2013 at 12:09 AM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:05 PM
 
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Mr. Jtur88:

Your statement exposes a misunderstanding of the Declaration of Independence. Jefferson clearly expressed, that a just revolution must explain its self to the world. Though Jefferson, represented a small group of people who were the leaders of an emerging republic, the declaration of self evidence applied to all mankind!
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:27 PM
 
10,531 posts, read 15,593,251 times
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Originally Posted by burn6675 View Post
Was Thomas Jefferson correct in his assertion that, it is self evident that all men are created equal; and if this is true what other facts are self evident?
Read Animal Farm.

In it, it says: all animals are created equal; it's only that some are more equal than others.

Be well.

Animal Farm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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