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Old 07-18-2013, 04:46 PM
 
259 posts, read 204,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTaTHEIST View Post
The basis for "moral objection" is basically the same for everyone, theist or atheist. Culture. We can expand culture to mean; the social environment that informs our behavior. Strip away this programming and we wouldn't be animals who considered morals to any great degree.
That's a clever distinction that really is no distinction at all considering how often cultures are shaped by theological beliefs. Although the United States is quickly becoming a secular humanist nation, it's laws just like English common law was first defined by moral values based on theism. It was the belief in certain inalienable rights that one was endowed with by the Creator. It is theological and philosophical beliefs that shape culture to begin with.

It is the belief that there is universal truth and a universal standard that humanity can be held to that is the justification of punishment for crime on national or international level that transcends culture.

That's why someone can be tried for crimes against humanity in a country that may have a totally different "culture"
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:07 PM
 
354 posts, read 246,115 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATTC
It is the belief that there is universal truth and a universal standard that
humanity can be held to that is the justification of punishment for crime on
national or international level that transcends culture.
And yet without a persistent social environment informing our behavior, none of what you've written would amount to a hill of beans. Morals, theism, the ideas of universal truths and standards (which of course I reject) are all socially evolved concepts. If humans didn't have the capacity to carry these ideas from one generation to the next, we be in the same moral and ideological state as the other higher-brained animals on the planet, which would basically be just instinctual.

I also reject the idea we should "punish" for crime. In fact, this is probably the largest failure of human society. We've been punishing people for crimes for millennia and yet crime still persists. It's pretty obvious punishment isn't curing our crime problem, in fact, I would suggest it only amplifies it.

Quote:
That's why someone can be tried for crimes against humanity in a country that
may have a totally different "culture"
So what? This only accentuates the fact that different cultures have different moral attitudes and standards. The ones that tend to infect their moral agenda more effectively are generally the ones with greater destructive power (can be read as a better ability to punish).
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Old 07-19-2013, 02:34 AM
 
Location: California
454 posts, read 602,528 times
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Astounding! Why did the OP use atheists in the title of his thread? He assumes atheists have no morals? No sense of right & wrong because they don't read the bible which supposedly tells us what is moral/right/wrong? And being atheist they are akin to "bad & amoral" attributes and ideals?

Atheist or Christian/Jew/Buddhist, how on earth can one defend, advocate, or encourage pedophilia "because animals in the wild do it" or because "it's an interesting way of life"? Who in their right mind would want to have sex with a four year old... or perform lascivious acts on a 10 month old infant? That's just too over the top and creepy to understand!
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Kansas
19,185 posts, read 15,047,806 times
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The thing about atheists, I have no idea. You don't have to believe in God to be moral and there are people who believe in God that are very immoral so............ But I found this article about pedophilia and people need to pay attention because people like the OP are out there introducing these ideas hoping to desensitize people to the idea of pervs molesting our children: ‘Gay’ laws set stage for pedophilia ‘rights’
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
4,817 posts, read 6,144,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnywhereElse View Post
The thing about atheists, I have no idea. You don't have to believe in God to be moral and there are people who believe in God that are very immoral so............ But I found this article about pedophilia and people need to pay attention because people like the OP are out there introducing these ideas hoping to desensitize people to the idea of pervs molesting our children: ‘Gay’ laws set stage for pedophilia ‘rights’
Nice try. I think having sex with children is disgusting and I'm gay. I have absolutely zero interest in having sex with a minor. If teenagers want to do something with each other, then it's up to their parents to know what's going on. But the traditional idea of some old guy offering candy to a young boy so he can molest them is just disgusting to me. That has nothing to do with being gay or gay marriage.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:56 PM
 
6,319 posts, read 5,729,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zitsky View Post
Nice try. I think having sex with children is disgusting and I'm gay. I have absolutely zero interest in having sex with a minor. If teenagers want to do something with each other, then it's up to their parents to know what's going on. But the traditional idea of some old guy offering candy to a young boy so he can molest them is just disgusting to me. That has nothing to do with being gay or gay marriage.
Amen.

Pedophilia does not equal homosexuality.

Pedophiles come in all shapes, creeds and colours and is not related to any other condition.

Pedophiles can be gay or straight, young or old, male or female.

Most likely, statistically, to be straight, married, white men.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:46 AM
 
259 posts, read 204,749 times
Reputation: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyLuvsToTravel View Post
Astounding! Why did the OP use atheists in the title of his thread? He assumes atheists have no morals? No sense of right & wrong because they don't read the bible which supposedly tells us what is moral/right/wrong? And being atheist they are akin to "bad & amoral" attributes and ideals?

Atheist or Christian/Jew/Buddhist, how on earth can one defend, advocate, or encourage pedophilia "because animals in the wild do it" or because "it's an interesting way of life"? Who in their right mind would want to have sex with a four year old... or perform lascivious acts on a 10 month old infant? That's just too over the top and creepy to understand!
Astounding not only do people not read posts throughout the thread they predictably use the same straw man argument. So predictable that I even try to use disclaimers to avoid having to be repetitive

No one is saying someone that is an atheist is incapable of living a moral life. In fact within a Biblical framework it is highly consistent considering the law of right and wrong is said to be written on the hearts of all.

The difference is that there is no authority beyond one's own personal desire and feelings for determining right and wrong.

Or if people acquiesce they allow it to be decided by government.

Only when there is a higher authority yielded to can behaviors of other people be held to that higher standard

Otherwise you are being inconsistent. You are trying to hold others to a standard that maybe they don't prescribe to or maybe their country doesn't even prescribe to
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:48 AM
 
259 posts, read 204,749 times
Reputation: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindersslipper View Post
Amen.

Pedophilia does not equal homosexuality.

Pedophiles come in all shapes, creeds and colours and is not related to any other condition.

Pedophiles can be gay or straight, young or old, male or female.

Most likely, statistically, to be straight, married, white men.
The bottom line though is that there are groups trying to decriminalize the very idea of pedophilia and to use euphemisms like attraction to minors.

And if they are the author of their own morality, who are you to say that what they do is wrong?

Or if you appeal to government as authority of morality, where is the basis for it being wrong if there are no laws in a civilization against such behavior?

Again sure you can have the EMOTION and OUTRAGE towards the behavior, but why should they be held to YOUR emotions and outrage.

You are idolizing yourself
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,097,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATTC View Post
The difference is that there is no authority beyond one's own personal desire and feelings for determining right and wrong.
I get it and appreciate that you are capable of acknowledging that atheists can be good and decent people.

But I do not understand why you are so obsessed with the idea that morality is unenforceable if it is not defined externally to individuals and even society. It seems to me that a theist and an atheist are equally likely to go to jail or be condemned to death if they commit murder (for example).

I find that some people make huge deals about distinctions like this yet can't articulate why it matters. My wife for instance, despite being an unbeliever, thinks there may be a sort of impersonal, uninvolved deist-style god. To me, such a god is functionally identical to no god at all since it doesn't interact with us, place any claims upon us, care about us, etc, so I see no percentage in believing in such things. Intellectually she agrees, yet clings to the idea for reasons even she cannot articulate.

Same general idea here; if your morality and my morality both say "murder is a no-no and has severe punishments associated with it" ... then who cares if it comes from god, society, or fermenting chicken soup? You seem to think it's technically unenforceable if you can't appeal to some "universal source" ... but guess what, the assertion that a moral dictum comes from god is simply that; an assertion. It isn't provable, so again ... why argue about it?

And don't tell me that people take morality less seriously if it's not immutable and divine unless you can show me evidence. Theists like to grouse about this but ultimately can't show it to be true. Every generation since people wrote down their thoughts, felt that humanity was going down the tubes and rejecting the in new and creative ways, and yet here we are, thousands of years on, still claiming the same tired old thing.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:01 AM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,891 posts, read 3,980,500 times
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The Bottom Line, the "Moral Objection" Has nothing to do with god. I am an atheist, I do not need a god to explain social development or human rights
Pedophiles violate both of these. Any upstanding moral citizen knows the place of children in the development of society. It does not take a god to teach us to nurture and prepare these future adults for their place in the world. It does not take a god to inspire us to do nothing to jeopardize their inner peace. It does not require a deity to demonstrate that the most well functioning members of a society exist without the constraints of abuse. Any intelligent human knows that. In addition pedophilia goes against all teachings and concepts of humanism.

Pedophilia is a violation of human rights. As a humanist, I simply have no desire to do something that violates human rights. I do not have or need a god to tell me that. The success of humanity is all that I need, because that alone is real. Pedophilia is not wrong because god says it is, it is wrong because of the harm it does to it's victims. And from a humanist philosophy, victimization of the innocent is unacceptable and not an option.

So, how many children do I abuse as an atheist? The answer is All that I choose, And to quote Penn, another famous atheist, I choose none. I have no desire, no impetus, no need, no inspiration to molest children. If I did, then I would be in need of a psycho-analysis for personality disorders.
No god, no threat of hell, no reward of heaven exists that will make me see the larger picture of how nurtured and educated children end up as adults. They are the ones who become doctors, scientists, inventors, intellectuals, those who contribute to society by solving human problems. They become part of the solution.
Those who are molested, sadly, become those who carry a burden of psychological pain, disease, psychosomatic disease. They frequently fail to enjoy life and often repeat mistakes onto others which were brought about onto themselves. They often develop addictions, turning to drugs, poor religions and self-inflicted pain as a result. Why would any morally upstanding member of society want to be involved in that?

Let me point out to the OP as well that growing up in a small town Baptist church back when sexual abuse lacked the legal ramifications it does now, our loud mouthed pastors daughter left home because she claims she was being sexually molested by her father, an upstanding Baptist minister who claimed to not only believe in, but preached and sold weekly, God.
Let me point out that my ex wife, when getting her psych degree, participated in an encounter group for adult female victims of incest. Of the 11 women in the group, 8 had been molested by a family member who was a clergyman.

In conclusion, any humanist who has any vested interest in the good of society would not need any inspiration to avoid pedophilia. And most humanists have no god. The proof of this is in the statistics.
It is scary to think that so many god-believers would be obsessed with things like pedophilia and claim that they avoid it only because their "god" is watching them. Then again, looking at statistics of prisoners who are convicted of pedophilia and hold religious beliefs, clearly "god" was looking the other way at the wrong time.
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