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Fornication would be the Biblical issue, sex outside marriage. Pedophiles are mentally sick and you don't need to believe there is a God to realize that. I never thought that Atheists did not have morals. Seriously, without any laws you have a pretty good idea of what is right and wrong thus how laws came about in the first place. Sadly, we all know that pedophiles are trying to gain acceptance to have access to our children which is what makes this post so "ick"!
Yep. Even animals have basic codes of ethics if you observe them in groups. Those ethics are rooted in the need for the group to function in the most effective manner. I've watched an effective alpha dog enforce good behavior and harmony within a pack simply because it makes for a happier and functional pack. And I have watched an inexperienced alpha dog who could not enforce the pack's moral code in a cohesive way cause chaos and discord among the members.
Even if you factor out the moral repugnance associated with pedophilia, it is simply wrong because it is bad for the wider society. It creates traumatized children who then grow into traumatized adults who often cannot contribute fully to society. For example, those kids who were molested by priests and saw it all swept under the rug or kept it secret have an alarming array of problems. When individuals are allowed to visit harm unchecked upon other individuals in a group, it tears at the fabric of the group and cripples its effectiveness.
I believe religion was originally a way of codifying and explaining these logical rules and behaviors that allow a group to function more effectively.
There is really no way to justify pedophilia from either a purely unemotional and logical standpoint or from a moral standpoint, unless you are a narcissist or a sociopath seeking to rationalize your own actions or desires.
Atheists often make arguments against faith by pointing to "evil" in the world. But ironically what is used as a supposed Achilles heel against a creator is actually an Achilles heel against belief that there is no creator. The idea specifically that there is no universal moral basis or external basis from the intuition of mankind himself that we are held to.
So for instance let's take pedophilia. If someone is naturally attracted to a minor, who are you to suggest that they cannot act on that attraction if the attraction is mutual from that minor?
You are imposing your own system of values on them. Why should they be held to your system of values. Why are you intolerant of their system of beliefs? If you suggest that the majority of the population would agree with you, since when does the majority determine what's right?
As an atheist, I have never made an argument against faith based on "evil", simply because I don't subscribe to the idea of "evil".
Where I think your premise fails is when you assume that there cannot be a universal moral basis without a "creator".
May I ask what leads you to that conclusion?
As for your example: Pedophilia is wrong for a very simple reason, a minor is not developed enough to fully comprehend the results of their actions. Meaning; even if the attraction is mutual, one party is in too superior of a position of power, as one party does not have the ability to grasp the potential consequences of the attraction.
That being said, your example assumes the cognitive ability to be mutually, sexually attracted to a pedophile, which indicated that you're ignoring a wast group of victims, those too young to be sexually attracted to another person and mature enough to understand what sex really is.
A better example of how one can reach a universal moral "code" without the presence of a creator is murder.
The premise would be that Murder is wrong.
One can get to that universal moral rule very easily by applying self preservation. If murder was acceptable, that would mean that someone murdering me would be acceptable, that would not be preferable to my own survival and sustenance. One can therefor make the argument that since murder being acceptable would be of grave danger to my continued living, it is wrong.
On a larger scale, the argument would obviously be that murder being wrong is a necessity for the continuity of the human species.
From that point, you can make a rational argument for a moral code without a creator; If it's detrimental to me, it will largely be detrimental to all. That's an oversimplification, but it is sound, in my opinion.
My personal code of conduct as an atheist is rooted in asking myself whenever I'm making a decision whether my actions will harm someone else. As long as you are honest about the potential consequences of your actions, I think that's really the best way to guide yourself.
That may be how it functions on a practical level, but I doubt that it is the root of your sense of morality. Every human has gone through a great deal of socialization that provides the platform for making those day to day evaluations.
That may be how it functions on a practical level, but I doubt that it is the root of your sense of morality. Every human has gone through a great deal of socialization that provides the platform for making those day to day evaluations.
Not sure what you mean? Some people draw their morality from their religion - that's their primary fallback reference. The issue of harm to others is my primary fallback reference outside of the context of religion. They probably are pretty much the same thing, but I guess my version doesn't have the intermediary of a religious eschatology involved.
Yep. Even animals have basic codes of ethics if you observe them in groups. Those ethics are rooted in the need for the group to function in the most effective manner. I've watched an effective alpha dog enforce good behavior and harmony within a pack simply because it makes for a happier and functional pack. And I have watched an inexperienced alpha dog who could not enforce the pack's moral code in a cohesive way cause chaos and discord among the members.
Even if you factor out the moral repugnance associated with pedophilia, it is simply wrong because it is bad for the wider society. It creates traumatized children who then grow into traumatized adults who often cannot contribute fully to society. For example, those kids who were molested by priests and saw it all swept under the rug or kept it secret have an alarming array of problems. When individuals are allowed to visit harm unchecked upon other individuals in a group, it tears at the fabric of the group and cripples its effectiveness.
I believe religion was originally a way of codifying and explaining these logical rules and behaviors that allow a group to function more effectively.
There is really no way to justify pedophilia from either a purely unemotional and logical standpoint or from a moral standpoint, unless you are a narcissist or a sociopath seeking to rationalize your own actions or desires.
So well said
I think all reasonable people will agree with you, be they atheist or Christian
They legally don't. Until the day of their 18th birthday (the age of adulthood) parents have 'veto' rights over everything their child does, from sex to religion.
Law is not 'arbitrary' (at least, not in this case ).
In the U.S. And not everywhere in the U.S. 16 and 17 are legal in places. And the State seems to have veto over any parent veto considering the pushes for non notification for all sorts of side effects from said behavior.
This is crap. Just because someone does not believe in God does not mean that they are OK with child molesters! WTH?
I'm a Christian and this post is so offensive on like nineteen different levels.
Sorry. We are not all like this.
Well I haven't been through the entire thread yet but it appeared to me that the original question had nothing to do with sexual acts. Pedophilia is a state of attraction not action. I hope someone beat me to this point.
These are some of the many reasons pedophilia is both immoral and illegal - perhaps you might want to think about some of them.
Children are not sexual by nature. Any sexual activity forced on them by an older person is an assault, by definition.
[...]
A small framed 10 year old with a pregnant belly literally turns the stomach. We have a visceral reaction to it that tells us this is abhorrent at a very deep human level.
[...]
Lawmakers over the centuries have declared pedophilia to be abhorrent and against the law. Greater minds than both of us have pondered this issue and all agreed - it's evil and must be stamped out, by force if necessary.
Jeepers. Pedophilia is not illegal. At least not in the U.S. that doesn't have total thought control. Is this too nuanced for the conversation?
Are you calling for people to be stomped out based upon their thoughts or feelings or are you going to wait for them to break an actual law regardless of how many times you said thoughts are illegal?
If you are calling for the death based on prediction of thought do you extend it to other thoughts?
And your stomach does not literally turn based upon any thought. Please stop abusing the word. "Literal" means "literal" and not "emphasize seriousness of some pretend thing".
And I am not equipped to argue when children become sexually aware but I wonder how far you are from that stage in life or how you define "child". Surely a child is sexual by nature because that is how nature made all of us (whether nature is God etc). Surely a child in puberty is sexual by nature and you do not mean that we are not sexual until age 12.
To be sure I am not defending any illegal or harmful actions by adults against children. I am perplexed as to why puberty comes so early compared to the maturity to handle it but by all means adults should have no sexual contact with anyone probably 16 or younger (looking at an international norm).
But I think killing people for how they think or even express themselves (as long as they don't touch a kid) is horrendous.
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