a happy ending massage & morality (life)

[intelfan11315]

You've been in Thailand for years and you just made a post that long about a happy ending... and you're single? What the heck?

Who are you affecting?

[11thHour]

Morality has nothing to do with it. You are young and single. Take it for what it is and enjoy yourself. You don't want to suddenly find yourself an old man wanting to travel back in time to kick your own arse.

[dimaggio85]

Eh morality really isn't a common thing when you see the reviews posted about on Rub Maps

[franktank232]

You know...i bet after a few handers, they are all the same (other then size). Its probably good money for very little work. NOT that i'm getting into the business! I've never paid for sex, nor do i ever intend to...but marriage isn't free either and you could really say a lot of "dates" with movies in dinner are not much different.

[1w0n]

LOL, Just because your 50 year old mamasan giving you the rubntug has a smile, don't believe it's because she enjoys it. But if that's what you have to tell yourself, by all means. I've never been there, but my understanding is that you are wasting a lot of time by pondering. You will one day regret the prude mentality, instead of just cutting loose. And just think, you can do that and keep it all to yourself. No need to tell your friends, family, church, dog..girlfriend....when am I going to see something interesting, like the guy who says, he is having internal conflict because he isn't sure if he should have the midget and basket come with the other girls tonight.

[Miss Hepburn]

Joining in late.
Any massage therapist that even offers a happy ending should be reported to the local police.
It will be given to Vice and they will send an undercover police officer.
Period.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by optimusprimeyo

argument 1: it's degrading for them to give a happy ending massage.

That argument fails before it begins however as the person making it is bringing their own subjective value judgement on what is degrading or not, and applying it to the masseur. They may be degraded in the speakers eyes but not in their own. Certainly they are not in mine. It would be just as valid, for example, to claim that they are not degraded at all but the consumer is. Why is it any more or less degrading to be the consumer of such a service rather than the service provider? Skewed human judgement bias is all I see at work there.

Why is it any more degrading than any "normal" massage for example? Just because it has a sexual element? If so then to carry your argument you simply have to start with the assumption that there is something inherently bad or immmoral about sex itself. Otherwise what basis has one to argue that massage with a sexual element is any more or less degrading than massage without such an element?

Originally Posted by optimusprimeyo

-jobs are degrading; i.e. picking up trash is degrading

I find absolutely ZERO agreement with this statement in any way. Again it would be the value judgement of the person claiming such a thing and I find the judgement as crass as it is baseless. Again I would be simply agog to hear what measurement the speaker is using to espouse such a claim.

Originally Posted by optimusprimeyo

argument 2: they might feel like they have to do it

I do not see this as being an argument relevant to the topic at all. It is a sad truth that people working in just about every industry are often there because life simply led them to that point. There is work they would much rather be doing but simply can not for one reason or others. I know, for example, a guy working in a top paying IT job but is now only doing it because he feels he has to. He feels he has to maintain the level of income and standard of life he and his family are accustomed to. In fact he would much rather be out on the field working in archaeology.

Not wanting to be in the job you are in is a sad but true fact of many peoples lives. It does not say ANYTHING about the ethical or moral value of the job itself.

Originally Posted by optimusprimeyo

argument 3: it's a form of prostitution

That is not an argument at all but a statement from implication. That is the person making this argument that massage with a sexual element is bad..... is attempting to just ASSUME that prostitution is bad..... and is then trying to link the two things together to make massage with a sexual element bad by proxy.

This fails twice therefore.

1) Arguments by proxy are not worth the paper they are written on.
2) We can not simply assume prostitution is bad either. The speaker would have to make that argument first before attempting the argument by proxy.

Originally Posted by optimusprimeyo

why think it's immoral then?

Beats the hell out of me. I have seen no argument in my entire life to suggest it is immoral. All I see is people occasionally declaring it is and then running away.

Originally Posted by MoonBeam33

1. I'm sure the VAST majority of those girls are younger than you think they are and are not necessarily there by choice.

I see two issues with that argument.

The first is that you have substantiated it with nothing but the phrase "I'm sure". Your certainty while making an assertion alas does not stop it being an assertion.

The second is that even if it were true that does not make massage with a sexual element immoral or unethical. It is another "By proxy" argument. If an industry contains unsavory or illegal operators than this is an indictment of those operators. NOT the industry itself.

For example it was recently enough (within my latter life time) found that many clothing manufacturers were using child slave labor and operating slave factories at well below minimum wage. Who is indicted here? Do we say those operators were immoral? Or do we say clothing and clothes manufacturing is immoral?

Clearly the latter is ridiculous. The former is the obvious choice. So too is it here. If a service supplier in this industry is offering underage girls or is engaged in slavery, kidnapping or trafficing then THEY are at fault and guilty here. The industry itself is not.

Originally Posted by mordant

I don't see the appeal, personally. It seems like masturbation only more expensive and time consuming and impersonal. And probably, less consistently satisfactory.

True but irrelevant to the thread however. The question is about the morality of it. Not whether you personally see any reason to engage in it. I for example see absolutely zero reason to smoke. I do not see the appeal or any justification for the massive expense it causes people, especially in my home country where it is taxed heavily.

But at no point is that an argument relevant to the ethics of the tobacco industry.

Originally Posted by biscuitmom

That's the sad truth about the sex trade. It's run by people who don't themselves partake in the act but coerce underlings to do so. Therein lies the lack of morality.

I am afraid this is another nonsense argument from you here too. If we were to apply your argument across the board then you have indicted the morality of anyone in a management position. What about the people who manage and own restaurants but do none of the cooking or serving themselves, hiring instead underlings to do it?

What of the teaching industry, the building trade, the transport network and just about anything else? If merely managing a business in which you do not partake of the actual on the ground work is enough to call its morality into question then what is left as moral in this world? Freelancers?

Originally Posted by biscuitmom

Much research shows the great majority of sex workers are mercilessly, tragically abused and exploited.

Then present this "much research". Actual research papers I mean. Not blog opinion pieces or news paper articles. I am all ears. Or in this case, eyes.

Originally Posted by lovesMountains

I so wish men would stop to think about this.

We do all the time so your wishing is misplaced. In fact one of the main arguments brought to bear by people like myself who have no issue with the sex industry is that legalization and regulation of it would allow for a licensing system which could be tailored to ensure that those obtaining a license are not doing so under coercion or trafficking.

Unfortunately the anti sex industry people want to have their cake and eat it. They want it to be illegal SO THAT such awful things happen SO THAT they can have an anti sex industry argument. The anti side contrive to manufacture the problems so the problems give fuel to the arguments they wish to use to justify their position in the first place.

Originally Posted by lovesMountains

They are pleasuring themselves with kids, most of whom are forced to do what they do to survive

"most" is a very specific and hard to misinterpret word. I trust you have some actual statistics to back up your assertion here? Experience with your assertions in the past does not leave me hopeful.

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

But girls are traumatized by it. Why? Because society has taught them to feel that way, it's like it programmed them: if you go through rape, BE traumatized. But why?

That was nonsense from you I am afraid. The Trauma of rape is not just a society conditioned response. It is the forceful removal of choice and freedom and individuality from a person. That you think there is nothing wrong with it except some conditioned response does not reflect well on you at all I fear.

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

When someone steals from us, we don't get "sick" from it. But we do from being raped. It shouldn't be so. It's bad for the people.

Actually that is not true either. Sometimes theft can leave people with a wealth of trauma and negatives conditions. The mere knowledge that your home has been invaded, even if you were not there at the time, can lead to all kinds of trauma and vulnerability that can be quite detrimental over time. You not having had the training and experience in psychology and psychiatry that I have may not be aware that professionals in those fields are all the time treating people for the stress, paranoia, trauma and more that theft and burglary and muggings can cause. Even if the victim was or was not present when the crime occurred.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Any massage therapist that even offers a happy ending should be reported to the local police.

Agreed. I am all for legalizing prostitution and Massage with a Sexual Element. BUT if you are living in an area where it is currently illegal then a law is being broken. So report it.

I would actively campaign in such an area to have the law changed of course. But while it IS the law I, for the most part, advocate respecting, following and executing that law too.

There are of course exceptions where it can be argued that flouting and breaking a law is justifiable during the campaign to have the law repealed. But they are extreme exceptions for the most part and I do not think the sex industry is one of them.

[Cleonidas]

Originally Posted by high iron

So much rationalization. You're in Thailand, FFS, dude. Remove the stick from your rectum and enjoy the place to the maximum while you have the chance. You'll be dead for billions of aeons to come and no one will remember that you didn't get a handjob...or worse...back in AD 2013.

I don't really see why this didn't end the thread.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Joining in late.
Any massage therapist that even offers a happy ending should be reported to the local police.
It will be given to Vice and they will send an undercover police officer.
Period.

Did you understand that this discussion was about massages in Thailand?

If the discussion was about massage therapists in the US, would you prefer that your local law enforcement spend time investigating massage therapists providing happy endings, or crimes that involve personal injury, robbery, property damage or child abuse?

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by tijlover

With all the thousands of those who have become massage therapists, "victims" of the mob-like massage schools in this country, over the past 20 years, and realizing that during a recession such luxuries go to the bottom of the totem pole, with therapists fighting to acquire new clients, let alone maintain their existing clientele, how many today can even spell the word ethics?

I've been in the massage business 25 years, been thru 2 recessions and the most recent 2nd Great Depression. I saw it happening with the first recession: clients that used to come every 2 weeks, now came every 2-3 months, leaving you struggling to get new clients to fill the void.

This 2nd Great Depression has beat out the last 2 recessions. Once a month now becomes once every 3 or 6 months. A few now, once a year! Phone doesn't even ring anymore even for the curious callers!
Without my 2nd job, there's no way I could make it with massage, even with happy endings!

I chuckle everytime I see a massage therapist advertising today: Nonsexual only! One of the reasons for stating that is to try and fool the police!

So what's your point? Every massage therapist can spell "ethics" because as you well know, every one is required to take Continuing Education ethics courses for renewing their license. And why are massage schools "mob-like"? I don't know where you practice (let me guess--Vegas?), but I live in a resort town with quite a few spas and even more private massage practices, and no one I know gives "happy endings". Eww. To deal with the recession, people have either found niches that work for them (I work for local Indian tribes in their health programs), or they have 2nd jobs or other sources of income. Some leave the profession. Others get set up to take health insurance clients. There are a variety of ways to adapt to economic conditions without resorting to illegal practices, but maybe the crowd you hang out with is more inclined to take the easy way out.