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Old 07-07-2013, 09:32 AM
 
Location: New Albany, IN
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1. Does love exist without conditions?

2. Does love exist without trust?

I have some opinions but I would like to see what others on the forum think... I'm mostly sure one of those, but I'm conflicted about the other. BTW I mean human to human love, not that between human and a divine being or animals, etc.
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:22 AM
 
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You need to first get an agreement as to what "love" is......then maybe you can get your questions answered.

There's the biggy...sexual. And then, there's family member love. 'taint the same thing.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
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There are anywhere between three to fifteen types of love depending on 'who' you talk to.

Love without conditions is unconditional love and is hard for most people to do. If a partner cheats and there is no forgiveness, if a offspring goes down a bad road and the parent cuts them off. These people's love has conditions.

I'm sure there is love without trust, one would be the unconditional love obviously. Then there is the love that is dysfunctional, a love that is given in hopes of filling a hole and is given to another who is possibly not very honorable, and yet loved anyway.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Kansas
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Love without conditions is usually the way a parent loves a child, especially when the child is younger and in the learning phase of life. It appears that when an adult wants "unconditional" love, that they aren't able to love the one they want unconditional love from enough to actually be worthy of love so to me, love without conditions usually exists in a one-sided relationship - "I don't love you enough to hold up my end of this relationship but I want you to love me no matter what I do." A lack of trust destroys love and a love without trust is on very shaky ground. The word "love" is very overused and I swear no one realizes it is an "action" verb!
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Speaking in the context of romantic love exclusively:

I regard love as a decision to place the needs, hopes, dreams, aspirations and welfare of another first -- ahead of your own, if need be. I don't believe there is such a thing as unconditional love because even someone who is willing to give 100% of themselves as a lover can eventually reach the end of themselves under the right circumstances -- whether or not they wish to.

Although I am surprised at how much love I can still give, I have been irreversibly diminished by every loss and betrayal I have experienced, and I am not the man I used to be anymore and never will be. I don't have as much to give my wife (who is #3) as I had for #2. The reason it still balances as she's in the same situation. We are both damaged goods and understand our limitations.

Most people who enter into marriage do have a few conditions: exclusivity / loyalty, devotion, respect, equality, that sort of thing. Perhaps, an agreement that they will or will not have children together. Few can endure the pangs of jealousy suffered when your partner is unfaithful sexually or even emotionally. Beyond those kinds of things, the beloved is free to grow old and gnarly, to have unplanned physical problems, to regress to childish behavior now and then in times of stress, and have no fear of being rejected because of such things.

I believe the human nature demands that there be a tacit understanding between lovers that there are certain places you simply refuse to go in your thinking about each other. There is no point in intimate relationships if either party has to hear garbage like "I hate you", "I wish I'd never married you", "You disgust me", etc. These are simply not in the lexicon or the toolbox. This doesn't mean you don't have boundaries or standards or that you are a doormat but it simply means you learn how to have disagreements without childish gambits like the ones I listed above. No one gets married to be browbeaten, ever. If you can't cope with the requirement to fight fair and kindly and to allow your partner to be human and imperfect and to have some aspects of the relationship be a bit asymmetric, then don't get married. You have to be willing to continue to wear whatever rose-colored glasses you had on when you "fell in love". You're not allowed to take them off unless you're willing to give your projections back to your partner at the same time.
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Old 07-07-2013, 05:52 PM
 
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayah(812) View Post
1. Does love exist without conditions?

2. Does love exist without trust?

I have some opinions but I would like to see what others on the forum think... I'm mostly sure one of those, but I'm conflicted about the other. BTW I mean human to human love, not that between human and a divine being or animals, etc.
Love always has conditions, but sometimes they are invisible. For example, an obsessed person may seem to "love" everything about this person. But they "love" this way because they are reaping some sort of satisfaction from this "loving". Usually, if a person reaps no rewards of any kind (visible or invisible), there is no logical reason to continue that action/attachment. Our bodies are programmed to act based on some logical algorithm. So they follow: reward-action, action-reward (plus some other) algorithms.

But mothers... do they love unconditionally? Well, there are different mothers. Some can't seem to be pleased by anything their child does. Others seem to be blind to all the faults of the child.

Anyways, there are always conditions, but sometimes we just don't have enough information to specifically point them out.

Love without trust - well, some girls fall in love with guys, but they don't quite trust them and vise versa. So, I guess, yes, it's possible. There are different levels and kinds of love also. So, which love? But you could also love a brother, but not really trust him. But trust in what? Trust that he is doing something harmful to someone else or to you?
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Old 07-08-2013, 08:53 AM
 
Location: New Albany, IN
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Default my thoughts, so far

Well thank you all so far for your thoughtful input. I was a little nervous posting my questions because I never participated in the Philosophy forum...but those questions have been on my mind for a while.

Several of you brought up the point that there are "different kinds" of love...Sometimes I don't know what I think about that. But it does make me think. For example two of the people I love most in my life are my husband and my mother. But do I love them the same? Not just on the same level, but in the same way? I'll have to think more.

Anyway for question 1 I think between humans there is no such thing as unconditional love. Since we are humans I think we all have our "breaking points," of course that point is different for each person and toward each person. The most common example of "unconditional love" is between mother and child. Well how often do we hear of a mother abandoning her child? So it's not an automatic bond. But also, does the mother love her child because he is hers, because there is a part of her in him? So would possession be considered a condition in that mother-child bond?

For the second question I'm not so sure. I want to lean toward saying you can love someone without trusting him...But still...I suppose there are levels of trust just as there are levels of love. In my mind trust comes with love--that's a given, if I can love him then I can trust him. But what happens when the trust is deeply betrayed? The love is shaken, can be mended, or can it just as well fade away? Mistrust of a person would cause me to hold back a part of myself from him; I don't think the love would be full or real if I could not give my whole self to a person. It's a hard question for me. Then I think of another example, that of my friend whose uncle was a child molester; somehow the family continued to love this uncle until he passed away, didn't cast him away, still treated him as one of the family...Yet most of them knew they could not trust this uncle around children...This example is uncomfortable but it brings me to think how strong love can be and how mistrust or betrayal does not definitely make love disappear.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
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Unconditional love is possible and easy once fully grasped. I can detest what a child molester does, but I can still acknowledge that he is human and deserves compassion. I love everyone, but I don't have to like them...if that makes sense. Love does not have to be physical or relationship based. I do not agree with the political heads that take us into war, and while I have never met them, I love them unconditionally.
Now because there is so much distance, it really does not take away much of my own personal energy to love a person who does the opposite of what I feel is right. But if I encountered that person trapped in a disaster or even begging on the street, I would help them as best as I could.
Unconditional love is basically compassion for your fellow man no matter what.

Yes, mother to child love is often unconditional, and child to parent at times as well. As you expressed, because they ARE parent and child. My father was a big fat jerk! But he was my father and I loved him and loving him did not feel like an obligation.
But for some, I am sure it does feel forced.
Unconditional love encompasses loving without trusting. This is where I think most get confussed about unconditional love. One can have boundaries with those who they are close to, as well as personal boundaries. I love my hubs, and if he did the worst he could do to me, I'd still love him and it would be the hardest thing for me to do, but I would have to leave him....yet, still and always loving him.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:38 AM
 
Location: USA
1,590 posts, read 1,724,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayah(812) View Post
Well thank you all so far for your thoughtful input. I was a little nervous posting my questions because I never participated in the Philosophy forum...but those questions have been on my mind for a while.

Several of you brought up the point that there are "different kinds" of love...Sometimes I don't know what I think about that. But it does make me think. For example two of the people I love most in my life are my husband and my mother. But do I love them the same? Not just on the same level, but in the same way? I'll have to think more.

Anyway for question 1 I think between humans there is no such thing as unconditional love. Since we are humans I think we all have our "breaking points," of course that point is different for each person and toward each person. The most common example of "unconditional love" is between mother and child. Well how often do we hear of a mother abandoning her child? So it's not an automatic bond. But also, does the mother love her child because he is hers, because there is a part of her in him? So would possession be considered a condition in that mother-child bond?

For the second question I'm not so sure. I want to lean toward saying you can love someone without trusting him...But still...I suppose there are levels of trust just as there are levels of love. In my mind trust comes with love--that's a given, if I can love him then I can trust him. But what happens when the trust is deeply betrayed? The love is shaken, can be mended, or can it just as well fade away? Mistrust of a person would cause me to hold back a part of myself from him; I don't think the love would be full or real if I could not give my whole self to a person. It's a hard question for me. Then I think of another example, that of my friend whose uncle was a child molester; somehow the family continued to love this uncle until he passed away, didn't cast him away, still treated him as one of the family...Yet most of them knew they could not trust this uncle around children...This example is uncomfortable but it brings me to think how strong love can be and how mistrust or betrayal does not definitely make love disappear.
I heard before women say that you need to breastfeed your child because if you do there will be a bond between you two.

I wasn't sure what to think about that. But I read about a study about dogs and how during certain times, there is a certain chemical released which is like a bonding chemicals. So dogs have this chemical more than other animals (or some dogs) so they get more attached to a human. Also, I heard that when mothers breastfeed, that chemical is released more than otherwise.

So I believe that in those mothers where that chemical is abundant, there is lots of seemingly unconditional love. And in those mothers where the chemical is not released as much, there is less of this kind of love or attachment.

Also, besides chemicals, it's about what you have been teaching yourself about attachments. If you teach yourself that attachments are bad, you will not get attached to anyone. It's like self programming. Our body does what we tell it to do (only we do it subconsciously).

Also, there are abused children who seem to still love their parents and abused women who claim that they still love their husband and can't leave him.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: USA
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Someone said: "I love everyone, but don't have to like them".

What is that mean anyways? How do you love someone when you don't like them? What is "Love" mean in this case? Treating them well? Thinking well of them? Wishing them well?

Obviously it's not loving them by your feelings since you can't feel loving towards someone you don't like, right?
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