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Old 09-10-2013, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,759,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorees View Post
Why do you disagree with me? Why do you think having kids is right?
I disagree with you on several levels, despite my own personal decision not to have children, and despite my recognition that many people have children who ought not to (i.e., many do it unthinkingly, as in following a societal script).

Let us take the case of a couple who are decently educated, able to provide for one or two children, and are psychologically suited to being parents. Now I would have to agree with you that even in that case there is a possibility that the child(ren) will have disabilities, either physical or mental or both, and that there will be much suffering as a result, both on the part of the child(ren) and the parents.

Your point of view would be that there is a moral imperative to avoid even the possibility of suffering. My point of view is that there is no such absolute imperative and that we must balance the possibility of the great joys and gratifications of human existence against the suffering.

By halting all procreation, we would, of course, bring a close to the human race; in other words we would be consciously causing our own extinction. This is what you are advocating.

I cannot go along with that at all. I do not wish to deny to future generations the possibility of the enjoyment of the transcendent beauty of great music, or the wonderful experience of the world's great literature, or the deep pleasure of learning itself by which we satisfy our curiosity about nature and its secrets. I do not wish to deny future generations the deep satisfaction of helping others, of alleviating the very suffering that bothers you so much (and that bothers all of us). We, as a species, have unlocked many of the secrets of out planet, our solar system, and the universe outside of that solar system. All those things and others which I could have added if I were willing to spend more time, are really the glories of our species. (I am certainly aware of the shame of our species as represented by Hitler, Stalin, and others; so I do not speak as a Pollyanna, but as someone who is aware of the opposite poles of possibility open to us.)

Where is the morality in closing off the possibilities of the joy in living for those who will come after us? In my own life I have suffered, and I believe that is universal. However, I am glad I had this life (I am 69 and still contributing via volunteer activities in the public schools), I consider it something precious and I would not want to somehow give it up retroactively.

In wishing to criminalize all procreation, you are espousing the most radical stance imaginable, that of the destruction of the only animal species on our planet which has become fully conscious. I accused you of being a misanthrope because I believe that you must hate the human race in order to wish for its destruction (or non-continuation if you don't care for the term destruction).
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:53 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,514,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorees View Post
I don't want anyone's life to cease. I am not against happiness/joy once a person is born. I live my life the best I can, I can find some pleasure here. My point is that bringing kids to this world is an immoral act because you can't predict if your child will regret existence. Live your life well just don't have kids.
So you're God then. You've decided the course of human existence for all mankind and determined it unfit to continue. When can we expect your 40 days and 40 nights of rain, sans any human presence on the Ark of course?

Here are a few hints for you. You were never promised a rose garden, life isn't fair and there are no guarantees. It's often those challenges that make living it worthwhile.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Mesa, AZ
451 posts, read 628,952 times
Reputation: 1164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Here are a few hints for you. You were never promised a rose garden, life isn't fair and there are no guarantees. It's often those challenges that make living it worthwhile.
"Life is pain, Highness! Anybody who says otherwise is selling something."
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,214,711 times
Reputation: 14007
Default Is Being Childfree Selfish? Debating Time Magazine's Touchy New Issue

This is a very interesting subject for me for some reason. First off, I think it's wrong to insist people have kids if they don't want to, but I would consider myself selfish if my wife and I chose to not have a family.

We have three kids (ages 13-11-5); our oldest has a laundry-list of health issues too, including autism, siezures, optic nerve hypoplasia resulting in near-blindness. God knows our lives would have been much simpler and cushier without kids but I still wouldn't trade them... especially for self-serving indulgements like ritzy stuff, vacations or so forth.

Large numbers of "No kid couples" are really just a result of a culture completely obsessed with materialism as the #1 goal in life. They will surely rationalize away but other than couples who physically can't have children, what other reason is there except to "play" without the worries, hassles and expenses of having kids?

It's our nature...the nature of all life to have children. The average human being has a very real, deep-rooted, psychological need to form and maintain deep, meaningful, long lasting relationships with others... and what relationship could possibly be deeper and longer lasting than that of a parent to his/her child? Beyond that, evolution itself drives reprodution and the basic fact (from the natural perspective) remains: we are literally born just to make new "copies" of ourselves over and over through the passage of time.

In other words, the perpetuation of life is our reason to exist (and the only reason life itself still exists). This game plan has been going for over 2 billion years on this planet and didn't stop just because of the current and ultimately temporary circumstances of the world don't exactly favor it.

Nothing truly worthwile is ever easy. It's easier to NOT have kids and when the natural urge inevitably surfaces and/or becomes too difficult to bear, it's easier to get a surrogate "kid" ... maybe a fluffy white dog with a sweater on it?

It might not be so easy live contrary to our natural programming and/or to die alone and forgotten in the future though. Old age and death are probably far away for the average no child, duel income couple currently living the high life, but what good is all that when it's inevitably time to start walking up the path to death's door?

Just something to think about.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,143 posts, read 19,214,711 times
Reputation: 14007
Quote:
Originally Posted by joangreen2 View Post
You know what is selfish? Having kids in a world like this...My sister for example, had a severely deformed daughter who was born with a rare syndrome. My niece who is now 9 years old suffers bullying in school because of her appearance, kids make fun of her, spank her... She doesn't have friends. She cries every day. She says what she most want is to die. What did this innocent creature do to deserve such suffering? Nothing. She was just conceived to the entertainment of my sister.

Everyone who brings kids to an horrible world like this is a criminal. Procreation is an immoral and irresponsible act which is only made to satisfy the needs of the parents, but it never takes into account the interests and welfare of the potential children. It's a total gamble and completely reckless to the adverse circumstances that may fall upon the life of the procreated.
Parents never care if their children will see life as a curse and will regret have been born. They just want someone to play with, or someone to take care of them when they get older. That's the SELFISH act. Also, this love that parents say that motivated them to procreate is selfish. They do it because this love feels good, because they are benefited by it.
The real altruistic feeling is empathy. And is for empathy that I have chosen not to procreate another human into this hell hole for my own gratification.

To parents, I hope your children only bring suffering to your lives, and abandon you when you get older.

To everyone there who has chosen to remain childfree, my deepest sympathies. And never let these criminals convince you that you are doing wrong and being selfish.
Wow, you would have gotten along well with this guy.



This post reads almost exactly like a eugenics sales pitch and it makes me sick.

Even the "worst case" argument here (not having kids out of personal selfishness) is nowhere near as bad as wanting to deny current (and future) sentient minds their existence "for their own good" or because you feel they are unfit to exist for whatever reason.

So much for empathy...
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:46 PM
 
41 posts, read 39,097 times
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"Your point of view would be that there is a moral imperative to avoid even the possibility of suffering."

I understand that there is no objective morality. But I imagine how this world would be if we let people act according to their own subjective morals... There is nothing inherently wrong about rape,homicide, theft,assault,pedophilia etc...

"My point of view is that there is no such absolute imperative"

So it means you don't really care about the suffering of potential people. There are children suffering from incurable syndromes and diseases, people experiencing excrucitating physical and emotional pain, torture, violence,bullying, rejection, etc... It doesn't really matters to you since it doesn't affect you personally.

"And that we must balance the possibility of the great joys and gratifications of human existence against the suffering. "

The point is that there is no deprivation of happiness and joy in the non-state of non-existence. The unborn can't be deprived of pleasurable experiences.

The number of people who will never exist is infinitely greater than the number of people who exist. You said you didn't have kids, do you think your unborn children are deprived of any happiness? The unborn doesn't have desire for happiness. The unborn is not "missing" anything. Do you feel sorry for every sperm cell that can't fecundate an egg and become a happy child?

Poor sperms deprived of happiness...

"By halting all procreation, we would, of course, bring a close to the human race; in other words we would be consciously causing our own extinction. This is what you are advocating.

In wishing to criminalize all procreation, you are espousing the most radical stance imaginable, that of the destruction of the only animal species on our planet which has become fully conscious. I accused you of being a misanthrope because I believe that you must hate the human race in order to wish for its destruction (or non-continuation if you don't care for the term destruction"

There are only individual human beings. By avoiding procreation you are just avoiding the unnecessary creation of life. You are not killing, or destructing anyone. You can't destruct what does not exist.
There is no negative consequences of avoiding the creation of humans. The universe doesn't care about us. Universe won't be a worst place without humans.

Last edited by Lorees; 09-11-2013 at 04:56 PM..
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Mesa, AZ
451 posts, read 628,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
In other words, the perpetuation of life is our reason to exist
Maybe yours, but certainly not mine.
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:53 PM
 
Location: SW MO
23,605 posts, read 31,514,657 times
Reputation: 29081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorees View Post
"Your point of view would be that there is a moral imperative to avoid even the possibility of suffering."

I understand that there is no objective morality. But I imagine how this world would be if we let people act according to their own subjective morals... There is nothing inherently wrong about rape,homicide, theft,assault,pedophilia etc...

"My point of view is that there is no such absolute imperative"

So it means you don't really care about the suffering of potential people. There are children suffering from incurable syndromes and diseases, people experiencing excrucitating physical and emotional pain, torture, violence,bullying, rejection, etc... It doesn't really matters to you since it doesn't affect you personally.

"And that we must balance the possibility of the great joys and gratifications of human existence against the suffering. "

The point is that there is no deprivation of happiness and joy in the non-state of non-existence. The unborn can't be deprived of pleasurable experiences.

The number of people who will never exist is infinitely greater than the number of people who exist. You said you didn't have kids, do you think your unborn children are deprived of any happiness? The unborn doesn't have desire for happiness. The unborn is not "missing" anything. Do you feel sorry for every sperm cell that can't fecundate an egg and become a happy child?

Poor sperms deprived of happiness...

"By halting all procreation, we would, of course, bring a close to the human race; in other words we would be consciously causing our own extinction. This is what you are advocating.

In wishing to criminalize all procreation, you are espousing the most radical stance imaginable, that of the destruction of the only animal species on our planet which has become fully conscious. I accused you of being a misanthrope because I believe that you must hate the human race in order to wish for its destruction (or non-continuation if you don't care for the term destruction"

There are only individual human beings. By avoiding procreation you are just avoiding the unnecessary creation of life. You are not killing, or destructing anyone. You can't destruct what does not exist.
There is no negative consequences of avoiding the creation of humans. The universe doesn't care about us. Universe won't be a worst place without humans.
Do you actually believe this stuff or do you simply need the attention? One of the "gifts" of being human is the ability to reason. That carries with is the concept of choice which is a very individual thing. People like Hitler, Mengele, Himmler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hussein, Gadaffi now Assad - seven of them alive during my life thus far - were/are also not disposed to render unto thinking human beings their abilities to not just follow their dreams but to even live. You seem to be of the same mind. That's not what I would call keeping good company.
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Australia
1,058 posts, read 1,450,998 times
Reputation: 1695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Wow, you would have gotten along well with this guy.



This post reads almost exactly like a eugenics sales pitch and it makes me sick.

Even the "worst case" argument here (not having kids out of personal selfishness) is nowhere near as bad as wanting to deny current (and future) sentient minds their existence "for their own good" or because you feel they are unfit to exist for whatever reason.

So much for empathy...
I would like to point out that it is impossible for people who do not exist to feel deprived of their own existence.
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Old 09-11-2013, 06:48 PM
 
878 posts, read 775,913 times
Reputation: 893
As long as you keep your kids under control or away from me, I don't care. I don't like kids at all.
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