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Old 09-18-2013, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Mesa, AZ
451 posts, read 627,658 times
Reputation: 1164

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Quote:
Originally Posted by julian17033 View Post
Not all of us benefited or suffered by the hand of public education.
I consider paying school taxes like paying extortion money so children don't grow up and become leeches to the system concerning welfare even though many end up being just that.


Where I live, they raised sales tax by one percent a couple of years ago, and the money was supposed to go to the education system. Hubs and I refer to it as the "Stupid Kids' Tax." Later, they wanted to do it again, again saying the money would go to the education system. I said no, because I haven't seen a return on my investment from the first time. The kids are still stupid.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Poshawa, Ontario
2,986 posts, read 3,320,081 times
Reputation: 5622
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742 View Post
Society and the planet. The child, if it existed, would be utilizing finite resources. Not saying that is an inherently bad thing, but having offspring does not occur within a small bubble of immediate family only. Most things don't.
That is exactly my point. The decision to have children can be construed as an inherently selfish decision. However, the choice not to procreate is not.

Sponger's argument could be applied to any human decision to "prove" them selfish. By using this logic, Mother Theresa's decision to turn her back on her family's wealth and help and live amongst India's poor or Christ's decision to sacrifice himself for humanity could also argued as a completely selfish decisions. Obviously, you can see the flaws in this line of thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
I don't even know where to begin. Wasn't it God[s] that gave humans and animals the power to create life? Are flies also playing God when they lay larvae in an old slab of meat?
Flies did not possess religion last time I checked.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:27 AM
 
19,078 posts, read 21,902,637 times
Reputation: 13432
Sponger, very insightful post. I look forward to the coming responses from the child-free side of the debate. I am curious about which countries you have in mind for immigration and what kind of preparatory skillsets you think these immigrants would or should have.

Crazy redhead, which kids are you referring to specifically? If you move to an affluent area you will more likely be surrounded by families with greater academic achievements/call it intelligence if you like.
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Old 09-18-2013, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Mesa, AZ
451 posts, read 627,658 times
Reputation: 1164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
Crazy redhead, which kids are you referring to specifically? If you move to an affluent area you will more likely be surrounded by families with greater academic achievements/call it intelligence if you like.
I'm referring to the children in Arizona's public school system (from which I graduated, so I know what I'm talking about).
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:09 AM
 
878 posts, read 774,524 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
Jealousy comes to mind.
What you're talking about is envy, not jealousy. They are NOT interchangeable. This is first-grade stuff.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:10 AM
 
35,324 posts, read 25,165,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
One of the often-repeated arguments that bearing children can be selfish, is the idea stated above. However, I assume that anyone who has not chosen to end their life is enjoying living more than they'd enjoy being dead. Therefore, wouldn't any child also enjoy being alive more than being dead, and invalidate this argument?

I wouldn't agree with your first premise that people, just because they are not committing suicide, are happier alive than dead. Way too many off base assumptions with that one.

Secondly, it isn't alive vs dead with children, it is alive vs never having existing and therefore not contemplating existence at all. Alive vs nothing, which is significantly different from death.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Poshawa, Ontario
2,986 posts, read 3,320,081 times
Reputation: 5622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tele-Cat View Post
What you're talking about is envy, not jealousy. They are NOT interchangeable. This is first-grade stuff.
Except for the fact the terms have become interchangeable in modern parlance. Please do try to keep up with the times.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 4,186,282 times
Reputation: 6834
Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post

This is premise totally false, and easily disproved by fact. The federal tax break for a dependent is $3800. Assuming a tax bracket of 25%, that's a financial "benefit" of $950 per year or about $80/month. The appoximate monthly additional cost to a household for a child (aged 0 through 17) has been determined by the USDA to be approximately $1500/month, meaning that child-rearing families are saddled with the same school taxes as you, plus an additional non-offset expense of $1420 per month per child. State tax breaks reduce this number only slightly.

Now, the USDA makes some pretty libertine assumptions (80K for college, significant increase in housing costs) which I somewhat disagree with. So I've calculated a more realistic number of about $620 in non-offset costs for the first child, $450 for the second, and so on (due to the abiilty to re-use clothing, the assumption that your dwelling is of a fixed size, etc.)
Yes, having children is a burden that families who have them are saddled with. It is a self-imposed burden that they bear because of their life choice to have children.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Florida
862 posts, read 1,215,482 times
Reputation: 1407
Yes, I think it's selfish to not want to have children, especially among married couples.
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:44 AM
 
19,078 posts, read 21,902,637 times
Reputation: 13432
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatCrazyRedhead View Post
I'm referring to the children in Arizona's public school system (from which I graduated, so I know what I'm talking about).
I suppose Arizona doesn't come to mind when thinking of our best and brightest. I hear Mississippi is at the very bottom, so it could be worse.
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