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This is fun. Ooh, I got praised, and then people reposted the praise! Thus I now have a selfish reason for continuing this discussion.
You do not share the unselfish reasons to procreate, therefore your procreation would be a selfish act. Other people do care about these things, and therefore can have selfless reasons to have children.
Wrong. All reasons for having children are selfish. People who have children are selfish. Every one of them.
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This discussion isn't about ego, want, or need. It is a simple exploration of fact and how the facts presented mesh with personal beliefs.
The universe has no meaning, other than existence. Humans add nothing to that.
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Facts: The only measure that can be taken of the universe, is assigned by a conscious mind of an entity able to distinguish itself from its environment and then take measure of that separation. All evidence we presently have points to humans as the only beings capable of this act. So if the universe is to be said to exist or not, can only be defined by humans (or God[s], or aliens, or some presently undiscovered or unproven other self-aware entity).
There are no gods, only people, who add no meaning to the universe.
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Taking the measure of the universe is the same as giving meaning to the universe. The meaning only exists to the being able to distinguish themself from the universe. This does not negate the fact that meaning now exists thanks to the individual, but it does "reduce" the importance of the meaning. As you said, your existance as a being separate from your environment only matters (or not) to you (and those who know you).
No meaning beyond the moment. Deal with it.
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However, because no other meaning can be demonstrated to exist, (such as the oft-proposed but unproven meaning due to other entities such as "Gaia", or "God's Plan", or Aliens) there is nothing against which to measure the meaning derived from our sentience. Therefore, the meaning of the universe to the individual is both the greatest and least important meaning that we can prove exists.
If it can't be proven, it doesn't exist. Hence the rise in Atheism.
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tl;dr
You sure are wordy. Are you Ted Rosen of Bellingham, WA?
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Because of my belief that meaning should exist, and because of the fact that we bring the only meaning currently known to exist, we should exist, therefore we should procreate.
Why aren't YOU procreating, hypocrite?
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tl;dr
tl;dr
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I disagree, and it is a fundamental and unreconcilable philosophical disagreement broken down in the statements I made, above. I believe that defining the universe is more important than avoiding suffering. You do not. You should try to recognize that my opinion is valid, and may be held by other people.
I do not think your opinion is valid in any way and I will not say otherwise. Your opinion is not based in rational thought, it is based in an unprovable belief. Based on what I've read, my guess is you've never had a valid opinion of any kind.
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I think the root of these beliefs stem from personal experience and disposition...This might be a mistake or the result of my inabilty to understand this different mindset.
Your mindset is that of a breeder pleaser. You are WORSE than breeders because you are a collaborator.
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You really count this as "harrassment"? I would call it "burden":
Tomato-tomahto.
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We've already had the monetary discussion. The society which brings you your wealth and comfort is completely dependent on children continuing to be born. It will collapse without them. You gain more benefit from breeders than you pay in taxes.
You are insane. Collapsing society would be a GOOD thing.
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Do you believe that people should stop having children so you don't have to deal with them in public places
I think people should stop having children because humans have outlived their usefulness to anything. We are parasites, killing the host. Nothing more.
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The planet is not an entity, and does not have the capability to care or not care, be "better" or "worse" off by itself. "Better" or "worse" cannot be defined without entities capable of separating themselves from their environment. Maybe the inability to grasp some of the ideas I'm presenting is due to an anthropomorphization of the universe, and inanimate objects within the universe, as if they were beings with such abilities?
You think existence is meaning. It is not.
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I would agree that limiting population growth is "better" for the planet, as we measure it. But the discussion is not about limiting the number of children each couple produces. It is about having no children at all.
No children at all would ROCK!
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Ooh, now I got assigned a catagory that I can only assume is supposed to be insulting: "Breeder pleaser." Fun!
Who "harasses" you besides your own family and friends? How do they know you're child-free, and not just out while someone watches the kids? It's not like you wear an armband or anything. In my entire child-free existence, I've never had someone run up to me and scream "DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN!?" and then "WHY NOT!?! ARE YOU SELFISH OR SOMETHING!?!?" I think I've been asked before--usually by a doctor or some service person trying to understand my situation or needs, but never harassed.
If your friends are harassing you about your life choices, they're probably not really friends. I suppose you have no choice if its your family.
Since only breeders have any visible indication of their choice (when they go somewhere with children in tow) it seems like they are the only targets for harassment or praise from strangers.
Just because you have not been harassed doesn't mean others haven't by people outside of their family and friends. There is a forum I'm a part of where I've read about some people being bothered by coworkers or even their bosses about being childfree. One person, I remember, told how her boss said to her face, "Well, it's not like you have anyone to go home to anyway" in reference to having time off for the winter holidays. How is that appropriate?
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Originally Posted by Braunwyn
This is what I'm talking about. You guys need and want like a child would. You want it your way. You stomp your fists because you can't have it your way and you're mad at the parents for it. It's ridiculous.
My own mother would do that when my sister and I didn't make her happy. She wanted things her way and only her way. Nineteen years I've been alive and she still does this. My mother's more of a child than the four-year-old I babysat on a trip to the beach.
I'm sure hatred has a significant presence in your life. I don't think it's fair for the lot of you to mix yourselves with the child-free. As somebody mentioned, you guys make them look crazy.
I'm sure hatred has a significant presence in your life. I don't think it's fair for the lot of you to mix yourselves with the child-free. As somebody mentioned, you guys make them look crazy.
You make breeders look crazy (of course, you ALL are), so I guess we're even.
Just because you have not been harassed doesn't mean others haven't by people outside of their family and friends. There is a forum I'm a part of where I've read about some people being bothered by coworkers or even their bosses about being childfree. One person, I remember, told how her boss said to her face, "Well, it's not like you have anyone to go home to anyway" in reference to having time off for the winter holidays. How is that appropriate?
My own mother would do that when my sister and I didn't make her happy. She wanted things her way and only her way. Nineteen years I've been alive and she still does this. My mother's more of a child than the four-year-old I babysat on a trip to the beach.
She would be in good company in this thread. I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's not about child-free or being harassed by people, but personal, emotional issues. People here are frigging angry. They want to see an end to the human race. Sure, I had people ask me if I had kids when I didn't. I would answer and move the conversation along, not have a nervous breakdown over it.
Tele-cat, your well-reasoned arguments, which indicated that you both understood my statements and then refuted them with logic, have totally won me over. Clearly you are completely right about everything. I'm sure everyone who reads your last few posts will agree that you are a thoughtful and reasonable person.
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Originally Posted by Kaye Star
Just because you have not been harassed doesn't mean others haven't by people outside of their family and friends. There is a forum I'm a part of where I've read about some people being bothered by coworkers or even their bosses about being childfree. One person, I remember, told how her boss said to her face, "Well, it's not like you have anyone to go home to anyway" in reference to having time off for the winter holidays. How is that appropriate?
...your basing your argument on something that supposedly happened to an anonymous person posting an internet message board?
Such behavior is totally inappropriate, though. I agree.
I dislike that my bosses have favored those with children and let them modify their schedules while I couldn't change mine so I could go surfing.
However, I recognize that I'm not as responsible to the waves as those parents are to their children. I've always thought it was silly to begrudge someone leaving early to go deal with their screaming snot-nosed brat. It wasn't so hard to console myself about losing a few hours of daylight with the thought that I'd be walking home along the beach after a (shortened) evening glass-off session while the stars came out overhead, when that poor parent was trying to put their kid to bed so they could have a few minutes of "me" time.
...your basing your argument on something that supposedly happened to an anonymous person posting an internet message board?
Such behavior is totally inappropriate, though. I agree.
I dislike that my bosses have favored those with children and let them modify their schedules while I couldn't change mine so I could go surfing.
However, I recognize that I'm not as responsible to the waves as those parents are to their children. I've always thought it was silly to begrudge someone leaving early to go deal with their screaming snot-nosed brat. It wasn't so hard to console myself about losing a few hours of daylight with the thought that I'd be walking home along the beach after a (shortened) evening glass-off session while the stars came out overhead, when that poor parent was trying to put their kid to bed so they could have a few minutes of "me" time.
First off, in this context, it's "you're", not "your".
By that logic, every one of here is an anonymous person posting on an internet message board, so we're all just fictional identities and nothing we say is real because it's communicated electronically instead of face-to-face. I was not basing my argument (what the hell?) solely on that example. That was just the one I used.
I don't think it's silly because it is still unfair. If people are going to receive time off, it should be based on work performance, equal, or not given at all.
Last edited by Kaye Star; 09-27-2013 at 05:29 PM..
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