Is Being Childfree Selfish? Debating Time Magazine's Touchy New Issue (divorce, society)

[StabbyAbby]

Originally Posted by Chango

This is a very interesting subject for me for some reason. First off, I think it's wrong to insist people have kids if they don't want to, but I would consider myself selfish if my wife and I chose to not have a family.

We have three kids (ages 13-11-5); our oldest has a laundry-list of health issues too, including autism, siezures, optic nerve hypoplasia resulting in near-blindness. God knows our lives would have been much simpler and cushier without kids but I still wouldn't trade them... especially for self-serving indulgements like ritzy stuff, vacations or so forth.

Large numbers of "No kid couples" are really just a result of a culture completely obsessed with materialism as the #1 goal in life. They will surely rationalize away but other than couples who physically can't have children, what other reason is there except to "play" without the worries, hassles and expenses of having kids?

It's our nature...the nature of all life to have children. The average human being has a very real, deep-rooted, psychological need to form and maintain deep, meaningful, long lasting relationships with others... and what relationship could possibly be deeper and longer lasting than that of a parent to his/her child? Beyond that, evolution itself drives reprodution and the basic fact (from the natural perspective) remains: we are literally born just to make new "copies" of ourselves over and over through the passage of time.

In other words, the perpetuation of life is our reason to exist (and the only reason life itself still exists). This game plan has been going for over 2 billion years on this planet and didn't stop just because of the current and ultimately temporary circumstances of the world don't exactly favor it.

Nothing truly worthwile is ever easy. It's easier to NOT have kids and when the natural urge inevitably surfaces and/or becomes too difficult to bear, it's easier to get a surrogate "kid" ... maybe a fluffy white dog with a sweater on it?

It might not be so easy live contrary to our natural programming and/or to die alone and forgotten in the future though. Old age and death are probably far away for the average no child, duel income couple currently living the high life, but what good is all that when it's inevitably time to start walking up the path to death's door?

Just something to think about.

How is not having children selfish? To assert that not having children is selfish is to contend that childfree people somehow owe children to someone or something. To whom exactly do I owe children to? Infertile people? The military? The government? Evolution? Evolution doesn't have feelings. Evolution isn't sentient. Evolution could not care less.

I would rather be poor and childfree than rich with children. Financial stability is important to me but my reasons for not having children have little to do with consumerism. As far as I am concerned, I only have one chance at life and I don't see why I should squander it to have children I don't want or need. I simply am not interested. Forget the price, I don't want the product!

Anyway, life is nice without children. If I had children, I would have to constantly worry about them becoming sick or getting raped or molested or murdered or abducted or dropping out of school or becoming a junkie or getting into the trouble with the law or destroying property or finding employment or falling into a bad crowd - the list just goes on. Why should I deliberately invite unnecessary stress into my life? What do I need high blood pressure for? Not to mention the fact that pregnancy might kill me. It's easy for men to demand that women have children when men are not the ones who have to deal with the risks of pregnancy and childbirth. Bottom line is, I prefer only having myself to worry about. Children are a great responsibility and responsibility is a burden. I like my life the way it is: calm, peaceful, tranquil, carefree. I'm nowhere close to rich, I don't drive or drink alcohol or go clubbing or go on vacations or even have a TV but I like my life. Why should I change that?

I will agree that the biological purpose of life is to reproduce but biological imperative is not moral imperative. Thankfully, humans have evolved beyond slavery to their basic impulses. Human don't have to breed constantly like rats. Humans can have higher purpose to their lives. I would rather kill myself if the only thing I was allowed to do with my life was pumping out copies of myself. What's the point of existing for the sake of existing?

And if you are going to bring up evolution, well, you've just shot yourself in the foot, because evolution is about survival of the fittest. Producing multiple children with diseases/disability is very anti-evolution.

You know what else isn't easy? Becoming a neurosurgeon, but for some reason, I never get flack for choosing not to become a neurosurgeon. Now why is that?

I would argue that it's easier to have kids than not have kids. Most humans are naturally fertile and actually have to go out of their way to use birth control correctly. In ALL cultures and societies, people who have children are praised while people who choose not to have children are pitied or despised. In first world countries, parents receive tax credits, paid parental leave, better treatment at work, more welfare money (single childless people don't receive much if they apply for public assistance because they are not considered a priority)...

Everyone dies alone. Most people will be forgotten by future generations unless they have actually achieved something of note, like Einstein (Einstein did have kids, but Einstein is not remembered for having children, only for his achievements). Do you really believe that your great-great-great-great-great-grandchild will remember you? Unlikely.

Here's an interesting question: Why do so many parents feel the need to invalidate a complete stranger's choice to not have any kids? Choosing not to have children is not damaging and harmful like murder or rape, so quite frankly, I don't understand why other people are so bothered by childfreedom.

[Annuvin]

Originally Posted by StabbyAbby

How is not having children selfish?

It would be something you'd trumpet if you were a "grass is always greener" "misery loves company" type who covets your neighbor's childless, easygoing lifestyle and secretly find your own kids a burden on your time and finances.

Now, who was the selfish one again?

[Braunwyn]

Abby, I almost entirely agree with you (aside from evolution semantics) and you make a great point: it's absurd for a male stranger to make a childbirth demand on any woman. People who make these demands of the child-free come off as lacking awareness and intellectually deficient. They're not really thinking clearly about what they're saying.

[elhelmete]

I think the reasons people sometimes give for not wanting to have children make them sound selfish/pessimistic (or at least reveal a particular outlook on life) but the actual choice NOT to have children isn't in itself selfish in any way. IMHO.

[convextech]

Originally Posted by The Dissenter

Yahoo!



Thoughts?

I think having children is the most incredibly selfish thing anyone can do. And yes, I have kids.

I wholeheartedly admit, I wanted kids. I wanted someone who is a likeness of me, someone who would love me unconditionally, etc. So you see, it was all about me.

Who can honestly say they had kids for some reason other than themselves in the equation? Not a single person. People aren't having kids so they can cure cancer. Unless you're a genius, a millionaire, or a prodigy, your offspring are nothing special to anyone else but you and your core family.

Just an observation.

[ThatCrazyRedhead]

Originally Posted by convextech

I think having children is the most incredibly selfish thing anyone can do. And yes, I have kids.

I wholeheartedly admit, I wanted kids. I wanted someone who is a likeness of me, someone who would love me unconditionally, etc. So you see, it was all about me.

Who can honestly say they had kids for some reason other than themselves in the equation? Not a single person. People aren't having kids so they can cure cancer. Unless you're a genius, a millionaire, or a prodigy, your offspring are nothing special to anyone else but you and your core family.

Just an observation.

Wonderful post, thank you so much for your honesty!

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by convextech

I think having children is the most incredibly selfish thing anyone can do. And yes, I have kids.

I wholeheartedly admit, I wanted kids. I wanted someone who is a likeness of me, someone who would love me unconditionally, etc. So you see, it was all about me.

Who can honestly say they had kids for some reason other than themselves in the equation? Not a single person. People aren't having kids so they can cure cancer. Unless you're a genius, a millionaire, or a prodigy, your offspring are nothing special to anyone else but you and your core family.

Just an observation.

It is definitely about the parent, but I had a kid so I that I could lover her unconditionally, not the other way around. A child does not lover her parent as her parent loves her.

[sponger42]

Is not having children selfish.

It depends on your reasons.

Selfish Reasons (Stemming from your own wants and desires):

- You have no desire to raise children. Though a very good reason, this is, by definition, a selfish reason. You acknowledge the capacity to create children, but you chose not to because it is not one of your wants. Qualifying the statement by saying you don't want to subject your offspring to being unwanted, does not make it less selfish. People can still be good at things they do not want to do.
- You don't want the financial/emotional burden or responsibility. This is self-explanatory.

Unselfish Reasons (Stemming from your analytical judgement):

- You think that your children will be so unhappy that they will wish they hadn't been born. (Due to dire predictions about the future, a genetic trait or defect that you might pass on to them, or stemming from your own feelings of wishing you hadn't been born)
- You don't have the capacity to provide children with, what you judge to be, an adequate quality of life. (Due your own disability, condition, or lack of resources)

Is having children selfish?

It depends on your reasons, and they are the same as those listed above.

Originally Posted by convextech

Who can honestly say they had kids for some reason other than themselves in the equation? Not a single person. People aren't having kids so they can cure cancer. Unless you're a genius, a millionaire, or a prodigy, your offspring are nothing special to anyone else but you and your core family.

People choose to have children for a mixture of selfish and unselfish reasons:

Selfish:

- They want to experience child-rearing. This is a key aspect of life, and many think going through life childless will deprive them of a very significant part of being a human being. It won't always be fun, it will be extremely expensive, it will certainly limit their freedom and increase their obligations, but when many people project the end of their lives, they believe they would greatly regret never experiencing the process of raising children.
Some believe they would try to compensate by directing extra attention to pets or hobbies, and some think that would make them unhappy, as some view those as poor surrogates for children. So some have children for their own happiness.

- Some want to give their lives meaning. While some enjoy being obligation-free, and feel like their work provides a positive contribution to society, if they were to die, childless, some think they would have only served to terminate their lineage and consume some resources. The argument of whether continuing the human species is meaningful is one for a different thread. Let's assume that it is meaningful, for this discussion. The desire to leave a legacy behind is also a selfish reason.

Unselfish:

- Some people want to make their parents happy and honor their ancestors by continuing their lineage. If some of their families' genes ended with them, they would be dishonoring the families' struggle to survive and be fruitful, that led to their birth. This is an obligation people some people feel they are born with.

- Some want to perpetrate human kind and society with another generation of well-raised, educated, and motivated individuals. They don't have to cure cancer, but some people do hope they can raise their children to incrementally improve the lives of those around them and the human condition, overall. Of course, that doesn't always happen.

[IonRedline08]

Originally Posted by 415_s2k

Neither having nor not having children is inherently selfish.

Most people I know who have decided not to have children get along just fine for any one of a number of reasons and don't feel subjugated at all. A lot of the self-identified "child free" folks who endlessly complain about how much crap they get for not having kids are also the ones who will engage you in a conversation about things such as why it's inherently more moral to not have children; how you'll be a crap parent because you don't make enough/aren't educated enough/are too old/aren't old enough/generally pass judgement on you and why you shouldn't have children; complain the second anyone mentions something about their family although they themselves more than happy to blabber on about things that aren't particularly interesting to others; constantly interject "this is why I've decided I'm never having kids" into any conversation that mentions a child, etc.

I've been a strict vegetarian for 13 years and rarely - maybe once or twice a year - have anyone mock or disparage me for my choice, and they're usually a family member or friend who's drunk and thinks they've being cute. My whole attitude is that it's a personal choice that I am happy and content with for reasons that may or may not be relevant to other people, so why bother even bringing it up? I have friends who are vegetarian who think of themselves as being part of a subjugated minority and believe that they are automatically morally and intellectually superior to someone who eats meat, and they are constantly complaining about how often people give them a hard time about their choice. They bring up their choice and the reasoning behind it to people who don't share it, and attempt to shame them into agreeing with them, which usually results in them pissing the other person off.

I'm also an atheist, and haven't had anyone confront me for my beliefs since an angry, self-loathing drunken uncle four years ago. Really, he's the only person who's ever disparaged me for my (lack of) beliefs. Similarly, I view this as a personal decision that affects no one but me, so I don't really push it in anyone's face and most people seem to assume I'm a morally-upright, fairly religious fellow until told otherwise.

My only assumption, based on my experiences, is that it's only an issue for people on either extreme of the spectrum, who just can't restrain themselves from making their opinions heard - constantly, and by everyone. It's not like there weren't any couples before 2006 who had decided that they'd never have children or anything.

Right on the money here.. I am a child free by choice, but, I don't feel the need to advertise it nor try to convince others of that. Everyone has their own choices to make, this was mine.

[Annuvin]

Originally Posted by sponger42

Selfish Reasons (Stemming from your own wants and desires):

- You have no desire to raise children. Though a very good reason, this is, by definition, a selfish reason. You acknowledge the capacity to create children, but you chose not to because it is not one of your wants. Qualifying the statement by saying you don't want to subject your offspring to being unwanted, does not make it less selfish. People can still be good at things they do not want to do.

Using this flawed logic, it could be construed that it is also selfish decision not to move to Detroit and become a police officer to help better the city:

You have no desire to fight crime. Though a very good reason, this is, by definition, a selfish reason. You acknowledge the capacity to stop criminals on the street level, but you chose not to because it is not one of your wants. Qualifying the statement by saying you don't want to subject your family to the stress of fighting crime in one of America's most dangerous cities, does not make it less selfish.

See how that works? You could insert any decision into the frame of reference you have created and label it selfish. As such, it proves your logic is completely flawed.

A stronger argument could be made that having kids is selfish. Unlike those of us that choose to remain childless, you are making decisions that directly affect other people's lives (i.e your offspring). By doing so, you are also creating more demands on the Earth's ever dwindling resources. The carbon footprint yet another human leaves on the planet will only serve to hasten the Earth's demise, and using your own genetic immortality as an excuse to create more unneeded human life forms does not make it any less selfish in the least.

You want a taste at playing God, plain and simple. And that, my friend, is the most selfish reason of them all.