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Just wanted to say that I really like your response and approach. I still have a good amount of time before I'll have to worry about this, but I can't help but think of how I'm going to handle these topics and discussions when the time comes. Your three points are great and are probably close to the approach I'd take.
Both can have a significant impact and whether or not that is positive depends on a number of variables. That's the case for a million things in life I guess. I have never met a person that regrets not having a ONS. Rather, I know a number of people that regret them. I have no idea how it's going to go as far as raising her, but I hope she develops into a mindful and purposeful of woman. That will be my intent, in part, as I raise her.
I suggest you come volunteer with me at my local senior center (we take care of their fish tank every week), if you want to meet some ladies who are bemoaning their bucket lists. Several of them have expressed regrets either to me or in my hearing. The most common was only having been with one person. Slightly deaf and vaguely eccentric can be rather eye opening.
I think it's a little sad that you seem to be implying that to be mindful and purposeful would run counter to having a wide range of sexual experiences. It speaks to the fact that even in this day and age women are not supposed to enjoy sex, especially not casual sex. Casual sex is fun like candy bars. At the same rate no one should be eating candy bars exclusively either.
I just hope my daughter never defines herself as less than purposeful and mindful based on who she has sex with because I guarantee you it has nothing to do with how the majority of men define themselves.
Both can have a significant impact and whether or not that is positive depends on a number of variables. That's the case for a million things in life I guess. I have never met a person that regrets not having a ONS. Rather, I know a number of people that regret them.
For me, the big issue is where does the regret Come From? If it is coming from the societal notion of being ruined or somehow fundamentally changed because of a single act, well then I think the regret is far worse than the ONS.
I doubt he is trying to influence his daughter at all because there is nothing in there in regards to what he expects her to do sexually. All he wants for her to do is enjoy the sex she has. It might be with the bf she will eventually marry, or 20 different people. In the end that will be her choice to make. Most people my age, and younger still have relationships.
But what would the essential purpose of having physical relations and intercourse be, if a person is not going to be actively pursuing a long-term relationship, or a relationship tending toward permanency? Is intercourse intended to be used more for something like recreational purposes, here? If so, I would very likely strongly believe that recreational physical relations are not in a young person's best interests -- especially since by making intercourse "recreational", a person is basically merely using another person's body, for their own self-interested physical pleasure. How can using (leasing?) another person's body be viewed as emotionally-healthy activity? At best and even if it is not true FWB, it is still serial monogamy...
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The fwb, or casual hookup is usually the exception rather than the rule. It's normally the product of sexual frustration in between relationships. And isn't as common as one might think. I fail to see where society is pushing people to wait till 28-30. IN reality that has to do with the times. People live longer these days, and are more likely to go to college. By the time you get out at 21-22 you want a few years to work,play, and build up money. With all of that going on people have less desire to get married young.
True, but even 20-30+ years ago and as far back as the 1980's, young people would still get married either while still in or shortly after college. The cited social trends above are relatively recent.
Even if people wanted of their own free to will to wait until they were 28-30 to get married, what's stopping them from wanting to form committed, devoted, permanent-leaning relationships at younger, post-18 ages? I believe that this occurs because society actively and intentionally disincentivizes younger permanent-leaning romantic pair bonding. College becomes "more important" and supersedes finding a permanent love, in today's culture. Most people today believe that careerbuilding automatically trumps finding a sense of permanency in love, etc.
There's nothing really stopping people from forming lasting, long-standing love relationships in college, or getting married, while still in college, other than that society does its best to discourage that from actually happening. If society was truly interested in helping young people to find love in an emotionally-healthy manner and consistent and realistic with natural human biological reproductive development, it would seek to lower (and stop seeking to increase) the average age at which either marriage and/or permanent-leaning romantic relationships occur. Marrrying at 28-30 only artificially (and rather harshly) prolongs and penalizes the natural human need that young people have as human beings to be loved by another person, romantically...
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And in reality that is a good thing, because the longer you delay marriage the less likely you are to divorce.
Technically true, but really only if you are using modern (i.e., the past 30-40 or so years of) marriage statistics as a measuring baseline...
Last edited by Phoenix2017; 08-15-2013 at 03:55 PM..
Reason: Adds
I suggest you come volunteer with me at my local senior center (we take care of their fish tank every week), if you want to meet some ladies who are bemoaning their bucket lists. Several of them have expressed regrets either to me or in my hearing. The most common was only having been with one person. Slightly deaf and vaguely eccentric can be rather eye opening.
I don't think avoiding ONS's or choosing partners carelessly equates to being with only one person.
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I think it's a little sad that you seem to be implying that to be mindful and purposeful would run counter to having a wide range of sexual experiences. It speaks to the fact that even in this day and age women are not supposed to enjoy sex, especially not casual sex. Casual sex is fun like candy bars. At the same rate no one should be eating candy bars exclusively either.
Your assumptions are off the mark. hml1976's views are something I agree with. Clearly s/he did a better job expressing them than I. ONS's typically involve alcohol and that scene is mindless. I want more for my daughter. I want her to think. I want her to have good reason in what she does in life. This doesn't discount multiple partners, bi-sexual exploration, altered states with partners, tantric sex, the kamasutra, whatever. As a former manager of a night club I witnessed enough drunken sex hookups. That has nothing to do with women enjoying sex, but foolishness imo.
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I just hope my daughter never defines herself as less than purposeful and mindful based on who she has sex with because I guarantee you it has nothing to do with how the majority of men define themselves.
I hope your daughter, and all women, try to have a friend with them when they are out on the party prowl. Sometimes decisions make less sense in the morning. I also don't buy into compartmentalizing choices made (for me and my family at least). If we engage in behavior that deviates from our norm (in this case thoughtful choice and behavior) there's always room to learn if we acknowledge that deviation.
For me, the big issue is where does the regret Come From? If it is coming from the societal notion of being ruined or somehow fundamentally changed because of a single act, well then I think the regret is far worse than the ONS.
I don't know how to tease out the role our culture and society has on my thinking. I'm sure it's playing a role to a degree. I just don't understand the no standards mantra here, which is the ONS. We have standards for all kinds of things in life and this is one of them from my pov.
But what would the essential purpose of having physical relations and intercourse be, if a person is not going to be actively pursuing a long-term relationship, or a relationship tending toward permanency? Is intercourse intended to be used more for something like recreational purposes, here? If so, I would very likely strongly believe that recreational physical relations are not in a young person's best interests -- especially since by making intercourse "recreational", a person is basically merely using another person's body, for their own self-interested physical pleasure.
Not necessarily. It can be for their mutual pleasure. Do you feel you are just using someone's body when you play mutually pleasurable racquetball with them?
But what would the essential purpose of having physical relations and intercourse be, if a person is not going to be actively pursuing a long-term relationship, or a relationship tending toward permanency? Is intercourse intended to be used more for something like recreational purposes, here? If so, I would very likely strongly believe that recreational physical relations are not in a young person's best interests -- especially since by making intercourse "recreational", a person is basically merely using another person's body, for their own self-interested physical pleasure. How can using (leasing?) another person's body be viewed as emotionally-healthy activity? At best and even if it is not true FWB, it is still serial monogamy...
Who said it had anything to do with emotion? Sex isn't always done with emotions in play. Sometimes you just want to get naked with someone else, with no ties. Maybe at that point in your life you don't have the time for anything serious, so you aren't looking for anything more than a casual thing. And humans are not by nature or never have been truly monogamous. We have always practiced a serial form of it.
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Originally Posted by Knight2009
True, but even 20-30+ years ago and as far back as the 1980's, young people would still get married either while still in or shortly after college. The cited social trends above are relatively recent.
Even if people wanted of their own free to will to wait until they were 28-30 to get married, what's stopping them from wanting to form committed, devoted, permanent-leaning relationships at younger, post-18 ages? I believe that this occurs because society actively and intentionally disincentivizes younger permanent-leaning romantic pair bonding. College becomes "more important" and supersedes finding a permanent love, in today's culture. Most people today believe that careerbuilding automatically trumps finding a sense of permanency in love, etc.
There's nothing really stopping people from forming lasting, long-standing love relationships in college, or getting married, while still in college, other than that society does its best to discourage that from actually happening. If society was truly interested in helping young people to find love in an emotionally-healthy manner and consistent and realistic with natural human biological reproductive development, it would seek to lower (and stop seeking to increase) the average age at which either marriage and/or permanent-leaning romantic relationships occur. Marrrying at 28-30 only artificially (and rather harshly) prolongs and penalizes the natural human need that young people have as human beings to be loved by another person, romantically...
Who says people don't form serious relationships when they are young? You can form something serious, and not feel ready for marriage at the same time. It has nothing to do with what society is teaching people. And yes college is more important than finding true love when you are young. It's better for you to find a career you love, and then you have the time to find emotional love. In the past people *women especially* had less options in life, so marrying young was normal. But now women make up nearly half of the work force, and more then 60 percent of college students. Our choices are no longer limited to staying home, doing domestic work, and raising the kids. We have more options on the table, and more ability to take our time finding the right person to date. Why would we desire to get tied down at 18, and we can spend time getting to know, and date other people, to find the right one to marry. And you also have to understand that far less people went to college 30 years ago than they do today. As more people go the average age of marriage becomes higher. Eventually it will peak off like it has in europe, and be in the early 30's.
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Originally Posted by Knight2009
Technically true, but really only if you are using modern (i.e., the past 30-40 or so years of) marriage statistics as a measuring baseline...
You can't used anything beyond that because the data is skewed. Since divorces were very difficult to get in the past, people stayed together even if they were completely miserable.
I suggest you come volunteer with me at my local senior center (we take care of their fish tank every week), if you want to meet some ladies who are bemoaning their bucket lists. Several of them have expressed regrets either to me or in my hearing. The most common was only having been with one person. Slightly deaf and vaguely eccentric can be rather eye opening.
I think it's a little sad that you seem to be implying that to be mindful and purposeful would run counter to having a wide range of sexual experiences. It speaks to the fact that even in this day and age women are not supposed to enjoy sex, especially not casual sex. Casual sex is fun like candy bars. At the same rate no one should be eating candy bars exclusively either.
I just hope my daughter never defines herself as less than purposeful and mindful based on who she has sex with because I guarantee you it has nothing to do with how the majority of men define themselves.
Call me conservative (and usually I'm not), but I do not necessarily agree with this notion that women who have many, many sex partners are that much more fulfilled than women who choose to select their sex partners carefully, limiting it to more serious relationships. I was raised with the idea that casual sex is good and fun, and carried that attitude with me in the later high school years and in college. I think having multiple partners really just took away the romance and specialness of intimate relationships, and I wish I would have waited so I could have felt the act with someone I truly cared about and loved, not sleeping with men who would toss me aside the next day. This does not have to mean waiting until marriage, either.
I don't know how to tease out the role our culture and society has on my thinking. I'm sure it's playing a role to a degree. I just don't understand the no standards mantra here, which is the ONS. We have standards for all kinds of things in life and this is one of them from my pov.
What do you mean by no standards mantra? I don't think anyone is suggesting no standards. My standards are
- safe
- healthy, emotionally and physically
- kind
And those standards don't preclude ONS. Lots of people hinge their judgment on the THING, not the actual objective outcome of the thing. When you say we have standards for all kinds of things, you will find that I object to those too when they are arbitrary and not based on the objective outcome of the thing, be it discipline, academics, whatever.
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Is intercourse intended to be used more for something like recreational purposes, here? If so, I would very likely strongly believe that recreational physical relations are not in a young person's best interests -- especially since by making intercourse "recreational", a person is basically merely using another person's body, for their own self-interested physical pleasure. How can using (leasing?) another person's body be viewed as emotionally-healthy activity? At best and even if it is not true FWB, it is still serial monogamy...
