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Old 09-09-2013, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,162,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorees View Post
I am saying people should have an objective view on life. Most people don't even question their innate and cultural biases let alone overcome them.

Life is fundamentally flawed. It's about having perpetual need and satisfying need. Need that is only temporarily fulfilled. Need is suffering and to satisfy need demands much work.


Look at nature, animals killing animals to survive and reproduce. Animals tearing up another animals to satisfy their needs. Do you think evolution "cares" about suffering?

Look at the absurdity of this game, what is the reason to be optimistic about this?
If you see the bigger picture, evolution isn't concerned about individual suffering, but through individual suffering it weeds out the bad and strengthens the species. So in a way, it's a 'positive' thing. It's kind of using a 'flawed' system to achieve it's end. I think there's an ideal reality somewhere, one where peace reigns, although I wonder if such a realm would see boring, since conflict seems to lead to excitement and interest and motivation in life.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:43 AM
 
2,759 posts, read 3,413,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
To poster Mordant: I didn't yet know the half of it regarding the extreme misanthropy of that "other poster". But I just now read her post 158 on page 16 of a companion thread in this Philosophy Forum entitled "Is Being Childfree Selfish?...." Here are two sentences from it:

"Everyone who brings kids into an horrible world like this is a criminal."

"To parents, I hope your children only bring suffering to your lives, and abandon you when you get older."

I am at a loss for words in the face of such extreme hatred of the human race. And the word "extreme" is a real understatement.
Who knows? Maybe that person desperately wanted to be a parent once, was unable to, and therefore hates parents and/or children. It's a way of dealing with a lost desire.
Or, maybe that person had a horrible relationship with their parents.
Also, I agree with the OP: my life will just get better.
It's easy sometimes to hate humans if one has had hellish experiences.
None of these apply to ME; I don't want to be a parent. There's no nurturing in me (except for pets and occasional babysitting).
I don't hate humans; just keep my distance is all.
Oh, and I agree with the OP: my life will just get better.
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:03 PM
 
Location: E: (0.00) - S: (-0.97)
231 posts, read 286,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

Some people give up hope. And they are still around, not to annoy you or because life is better than they're willing to admit, but for the same reason that suicide rates are way lower than suffering rates -- fear of death, fear of botching it, fear that you've missed something that makes things better if you can just hold out a bit longer, and if you're religious, probably a fear of committing the unpardonable sin. My second wife faced this every day of her grinding existence until she finally found the mercy of death: what if she gave up a day before some breakthrough or insight into her physical condition?
I think many people fear this life not being the end, plus as you say they could botch it and become a burden to others. I truly wish there was no afterlife, but I personally don't know if there is or isn't. I also hope I don't live too long so I chose the second option. These is just my own personal opinion, which I wouldn't ordinarily air, except in a thread such as this one.

Quote:
As for casting aspersions on those who reproduce ... I can forgive that poster for that; they probably don't much appreciate being bequeathed life themselves and see it as a cruel imposition.
I feel exactly the same way as that poster in many ways. I am an antinatalist myself and haven't, and won't be having children. However I strongly disagree with the poster's stance about others not bringing children into the world, IF they are properly equipped for the job. A child needs to feel loved and wanted. There are some good and loving parents in the world, that shouldn't be denied the opportunity of having children if they want them.




Quote:
What I'm willing to say on that topic is that I don't think most people bring sufficient awareness and rationality to the process of having children, and that disrespects the rights of the children they are creating and putting at risk of suffering. (Yes, I know they might be happy on balance too, but that isn't the point. There are no guarantees so you have to accept that any child you conceive could experience terrible and open-ended suffering. You don't have complete quality control on the process).
Even if a child is brought into the world into loving circumstances, there is no guarantee that nothing bad will ever happen to them.
Quote:
Maybe people who have had generally positive experiences don't feel that such risks have much reality. I have seen a huge quivering boatload of suffering in my day -- mine and other's -- and it has a LOT of reality to me. I hope I give some people pause, because I can agree with the poster that you bemoan in this regard: there IS an unexamined assumption that everything will come up roses, and if it doesn't, you must be some kind of total screw-up if we only knew all the facts. That approach to the cost / benefits calculus about quality-of-life is something I'd like to see gone from society. It's Pollyanna-ish on the one hand, and toxic and judgmental on the other.
Quoted for truth.

Last edited by TheUnknown67; 09-09-2013 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Utica, NY
1,912 posts, read 2,535,223 times
Reputation: 3200
No. Life isn't good. I was dealt quite a bad hand in many respects, my opinion of people in general has been heavily tarnished over the years thanks to endless bad experiences and let downs. I derive little or no joy from living and I serve no purpose by being here, other than taking up space.

Some people live for their families, others cling to religion while others believe that it will get better. Others believe we have total control over our lives, which I believe to be only around 25% true.

Luck plays the biggest part in who sinks and who swims.
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,189 posts, read 9,034,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by non-creep View Post
No. Life isn't good. I was dealt quite a bad hand in many respects, my opinion of people in general has been heavily tarnished over the years thanks to endless bad experiences and let downs. I derive little or no joy from living and I serve no purpose by being here, other than taking up space.

Some people live for their families, others cling to religion while others believe that it will get better. Others believe we have total control over our lives, which I believe to be only around 25% true.

Luck plays the biggest part in who sinks and who swims.
On my worst days I tend to agree with you, but on most other days I remind myself that life doesn't owe me anything, not even my own hopes, dreams and aspirations -- and not even if they're good and noble. And life isn't picking on me. It's impersonal; it just is. So ... I can let go of my expectations of life and let it be as it is. I find that this actually works quite well.

The trick is to live without the implicit judgment that something so horrific has happened to you that nothing good can ever happen to you again. In my case I feel that some pretty bad things have happened and if everything were perfect from here on it wouldn't make my life a net rational proposition. However, my current existence and foreseeable future existence is at least rationalizable -- and often just downright nice -- if I can just quit holding onto my pain. Honor it, acknowledge it, let it go, but don't hold onto it.

I know what you're saying, "I can't". Well, I'm here to tell you that you can. Look dispassionately at your pain head-on for 10 minutes and you'll see that it's ultimately just an idea. It has no real substance. It's your response to the ka-ka in the world, and you can choose other responses.

I'm writing this as much for myself as for you.

Oh, and it might be helpful not to define yourself in terms of what you're not, or what you're opposed to, or what you disagree with. Not-creep? Reminds me of my 2nd wife who kept insisting "I am NOT my mother". Gee, there are a million people not to be, and a million people to emulate. Focus on that. Come to it, there were a lot of things about her mother that were perfectly okay and worthy of respect.

I suppose the bottom line is that I've had to learn not to take life so darn seriously. My current wife is a big help here, she taught me to regard life as an absurdity and to laugh at it. It's a great technique.
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Old 09-10-2013, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Utica, NY
1,912 posts, read 2,535,223 times
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We perhaps think differently, though I respect your opinions and the opinions of others who have commented here. No point is any more or less valid than the other. While my view of life in general may be different to yours, I do not discount your opinions.

In my case, I fail to see anything "good" in my future. Without divulging too much, I can simply never be the person I am, largely because of the exterior shell, for which I am judged by. I have also pretty much lost all faith in people, thanks to endless bad experiences that I'm not even going to waste bandwidth trying to cite.

I often ask myself "What would make you happy, even just content and comfortable?" The only answer I can ever come up with is to have the freedom to leave humanity permanently. I would seriously volunteer for that one way mission to Mars. I know in my current physical form I will never be able to experience happiness. That's just how it is. Each day of my existence just drains me even more, to the point that I feel very little these days, not even intense sadness or anger.

These are my opinions. I don't begrudge anyone for enjoying life or for fighting for it. Each individual is different. Personally, I cannot wait until it's all over.
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Old 09-10-2013, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,025,881 times
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I don't know of anybody whose life I'd rather live.

I remember the time my wife and I speculated idly, as all couples do at least once, on the idea of trading bodies for a day. She said "I'd be afraid you wouldn't give mine back."
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:32 PM
 
Location: USA
1,590 posts, read 1,724,528 times
Reputation: 1630
It will be better when people realize that their view of reality is directly linked to the balance of "happy" or "unhappy" chemicals in their body.

It would be wise to realize that when you think that life is bad, it's not necessarily true. Or when you think that it's good, it's not necessarily true.

So when people realize that, they will stop judging each other for their opinions of life and they will stop making comments such as "life IS bad, and if you think it's good you're stupid"; or "life IS good and if you think it's not you're dumb".

We should focus on expressing our views on life as opinions, rather than "truths" and then argue and try to convince others that what we think is the truth and others should think the same.
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,189 posts, read 9,034,564 times
Reputation: 6077
Quote:
Originally Posted by non-creep View Post
I often ask myself "What would make you happy, even just content and comfortable?" The only answer I can ever come up with is to have the freedom to leave humanity permanently. I would seriously volunteer for that one way mission to Mars.
The problem with that one way trip to Mars is that you'd take it with (as I understand the current plans anyway) three other people and you'd have to work with them on a constant basis for your very survival and sanity. And you'd be cooped up in a fairly parsimonious habitat with probably less personal space per square foot than you're accustomed to.

You seem to have judged your future bleak because, according to you, you are physically ugly and therefore unlovable. Yet I see examples all the time of very attractive people who are clearly smitten and committed to fairly unattractive people (not to mention unattractive people head over heals for another unattractive person). Of course, that's because (un)attractive is each person's arbitrary judgment. My wife is significantly overweight right now and she is beautiful to me anyway ... these are all just ideas and you would be amazed to realize that other people aren't as rigid with their thinking as you are. Or as shallow as you think they are.

Ultimately as people grow they realize that the only sustainable relationship is with the actual person, not the shell. You could be absolutely most people's idea of attractive and could marry another Beautiful Person and could find the experience horrific -- and/or have it end when your attractiveness inevitably fades.

Unfortunately you have dug such a deep hole for yourself that you probably aren't attractive as a person because of excessive negativity and an unwillingness to remake yourself to be pleasant to be around. This is changeable but you have to be willing to own it and work on it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,189 posts, read 9,034,564 times
Reputation: 6077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
To poster Mordant: I didn't yet know the half of it regarding the extreme misanthropy of that "other poster". But I just now read her post 158 on page 16 of a companion thread in this Philosophy Forum entitled "Is Being Childfree Selfish?...." Here are two sentences from it:

"Everyone who brings kids into an horrible world like this is a criminal."

"To parents, I hope your children only bring suffering to your lives, and abandon you when you get older."

I am at a loss for words in the face of such extreme hatred of the human race. And the word "extreme" is a real understatement.
A strict antinatalist position could reflect hatred for the human race, or it could reflect great compassion and a conviction that the suffering of people is too great a cost to justify the continuation of the human experiment. Of course as soon as someone wants to impose this view politically it becomes totalitarian and immoral. And I agree, in this case, the expressed ill will and judgment and anger suggests misanthropy.

I don't agree with that poster that people generally have children with full or even partial awareness of what they are in for and what their children are in for. And most people try very hard to make life a positive experience for their children, and do not deserve to experience suffering from or because of their children.

Alas ... many DO experience suffering at the hands of their children, to varying degrees, and abandonment. But I take no pleasure in that.
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