No one knows about the beginning of life, right?

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

From wikipedia:
Abiogenesis or biopoiesis is the natural process by which life arose from non-living matter such as simple organic compounds

It says that life arose from organic compounds. (or the idea is that life arose from non-life). Non-life doesn't mean "nothing". Non-life means: substance (aka:building blocks) which doesn't fall under definition of life as we define it.

So that was my point. No one can show how life started, except to say: it always was OR it started magically (out of absolutely nothing, no building blocks of any sort).

It's interesting to think that life always was....

OR

that there was magic involved (of course, WHO wielded the magic then? or where did the magic come from, or what was this process of magic? this one makes less sense)

Magically? Huge leap.

We have enough examples to suppose it may have been a rare, but natural process.

[ukrkoz]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

Was there a beginning of life?

My answer is: currently I believe that life always was. I can’t see any other explanation as to how it could have began.

Believers in God believe that God always was. That means they believe that life always existed (since God is alive, therefore, if God existed, then life existed).


Believers in NO-God say that life came from nothing. And yet, it's impossible for there to be absolutely nothing and for something to appear. That would be magic.
So either they believe in magical beginnings or that there was always something, from which something else came about.

I heard somewhere that just like energy can never disappear, but only change form, also information (bits of information in the Universe) are always there, but just in a different form at times. So, if there was simplicity (just a small number of bits of information), then complexity could not be possible. Because it has to come from somewhere. You can’t build a complex structure if you have only enough material for a simple structure.


In other words, building blocks have to exist in order for anything to be built out of them. The building cannot be produced out of nothing. Even the magical fairy god mother of Cinderella had to use a pumpkin in order to create a carriage :-), implying that she can't create a carriage out of thin air (so to speak) even if she does have a magic wand. (this is a joke)


So, I believe that life always was (in some form or another). And that it starts and ends (as can be seen in all kinds of beginnings and endings throughout our lives, affecting all the areas of our lives.

Took this out of my mouth.

Logic. Logic is a very stubborn thing.

1. Look outside or anywhere or just listen to yourself, your body. You are. Universe is. Reality is. Even if you were a solipsist, for the purpose of your dogma, reality and everything else still exists. It is a simple FACT.
2. Aha, but one will say - reality, or universe, started with BB. Ok, yet, whatever came to be during BB, had to exist before it. As if NOTHING existed before BB, and everything appeared from nothing, then it's MIRACLE, and God exists.
3. Logically, that something, that NOW appeared out of, in its turn, appared out of something else. Or, there is a God, etc.
4. We can continue this statement ad nauseam and ad absurdum. Logical conclusion is simple. Matter, substance, exist ALWAYS, or are ETERNAL, and all we see is a chain of appearing and disappearing universes. Of course, if BB theory is correct, and everything was not created by God, etc.
5. At this point, we must accustom ourselves with a principle of eternity and eternal existence of physical reality, physical matter, and substance. Argue all you want to, but it is a simple fact that can NOT be argued.
6. I type, you read, and so on. You and I have some intelligence to be able to do this. Ergo,we exist as intelligent beings. Living beings. It is another impossible to argue fact. Hence, life IS.
7. Let's go back to #4. In ETERNAL, if life exists NOW, which is a simple fact, LOGICALLY, it existed before. Let it be 5 universe before. Or 5 million. Or 5 billions. Logic conclusion is somewhat different though. From stand point of ETERNITY, all those numbers have no value, as in eternity, 5 is same value as 5 billion.
8. Ergo, there can be only one logic conclusion made. Matter and substance exist always. They simply ARE. They are manifested in various ways in various universes, but overall, in eternity, they simply are. Thus, life is, as much as is matter, or is substance. As much as matter and substance ARE, as much life and intelligence ARE. But to truly comprehend this, one needs to come to piece with the understanding of eternity. Eternity is not very many years; or very many universes or Big Bangs or whatever else, appearing and disappearing. Eternity IS. In eternity, everything that is present NOW, is present ALWAYS, as in eternity, time and its measures, whatever they might be, does not exist and does not apply.
9. Thus, OP, to your point. Life is. Life is eternal. Intelligence is. Intelligence is eternal. Matter, substance, and space (as all of the above has to be IN something, that something being unknown to humanity SPACE) ARE. Regretfully, you posted a question, that has no merit.

Be well, and let the Light be with you.

[bvanevery]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

7. Let's go back to #4. In ETERNAL, if life exists NOW, which is a simple fact, LOGICALLY, it existed before. Let it be 5 universe before. Or 5 million. Or 5 billions. Logic conclusion is somewhat different though. From stand point of ETERNITY, all those numbers have no value, as in eternity, 5 is same value as 5 billion.

Except that we don't know what form the universe had prior to the Big Bang. We don't know that it had a form capable of evolving life as we see in our own universe. It didn't have to be like our own universe at all. Maybe the universe expands and shrinks and does the same thing over and over again, resetting the universe and evolution begins all over again. But we don't actually know that happens, it's a conjecture. We may not be able to know, but I'm not a research physicist equipped with the latest greatest theories on such things.

8. Ergo, there can be only one logic conclusion made. Matter and substance exist always. They simply ARE. They are manifested in various ways in various universes, but overall, in eternity, they simply are. Thus, life is, as much as is matter, or is substance. As much as matter and substance ARE, as much life and intelligence ARE.

But we can put boundaries on what we define as "life," in accord with what we have observed in this universe. In other words, "life as we know it." This might be a different organizational state than what we're willing to define as matter. I haven't seen any stars having sex lately, for instance.

It is not a given that all material phenomena manifest in all possible universes. That's my point.

[ResearchMom]

I am so happy that we do not know, and will never know the answers. Just think how much more selfish and proud we would all be, if we knew exactly everything there is to know. We were "designed"/evolved to comprehend just as much as we can for now. Who said that we are done evolving? Perhaps we will understand more one day, but for now it is really not necessary for us to know the answers to questions that are beyond our reach. How do you talk to a dog about Newton?

[bvanevery]

I don't know why it's worth privileging ignorance. Most of what we know about our true biological origins is very recent to our memory as a species. Contemporaneous with that knowledge coming about, women were deemed "obviously" not fit to hold political power, because they didn't have beards. “Power is on the side of the beard”: Masculinity and Facial Hair in Nineteenth-Century America | US History Scene Why should you (ResearchMom), a member of half the human race, be denied your voice just because great ignorance would keep someone else's pride in check?

[slingshot]

Who cares? Not me. It did and that's good enough for me. I wonder about paying my bills every month and that's about it.

[LoveWisdom]

Originally Posted by ResearchMom

I am so happy that we do not know, and will never know the answers. Just think how much more selfish and proud we would all be, if we knew exactly everything there is to know. We were "designed"/evolved to comprehend just as much as we can for now. Who said that we are done evolving? Perhaps we will understand more one day, but for now it is really not necessary for us to know the answers to questions that are beyond our reach. How do you talk to a dog about Newton?

Maybe wisdom is the ability to deal with knowledge. So once we have wisdom, then we could get more knoweldge. But maybe to gain wisdom we have to gain knowledge first?

Sometimes this is unclear though. For example, some people with cerebral palsy or some other shaking deseace were mistreated because they were considered "evil". But once people learned more stuff and realized what was going on, the world became a kinder place for these people.

In the same way, some knowledge will help us to be better, less selfish. Understanding how we are truly made (what motivates us and all), will make us treat each other better (or in the right way, which is better I think).

So, some knowledge will make us better people and some may not. The question is: which.

[bg7]

Originally Posted by LoveWisdom

From wikipedia:
Abiogenesis or biopoiesis is the natural process by which life arose from non-living matter such as simple organic compounds

It says that life arose from organic compounds. (or the idea is that life arose from non-life). Non-life doesn't mean "nothing". Non-life means: substance (aka:building blocks) which doesn't fall under definition of life as we define it.

So that was my point. No one can show how life started, except to say: it always was OR it started magically (out of absolutely nothing, no building blocks of any sort).

It's interesting to think that life always was....

OR

that there was magic involved (of course, WHO wielded the magic then? or where did the magic come from, or what was this process of magic? this one makes less sense)

You're confused. No-one is saying that life came from nothing, expect you (positing it). There is no scientific theory that life sprang from nothing, rather life came from something, and that something had been around a whole long time before life, or perhaps proto-life, happened.

Life came from non-life. Not much of a stretch when you see self-replicating molecules, and molecules that influence the position and organization of other molecules.

The question you seem to be circling around is that how can something, anything, (not life per se) come from nothing?


Let me cut to the chase to save you years of clumsy pondering. Here are the questions to answer-

1) Can something come from nothing?
2) What is consciousness?
3) Why does anything exist (including God if you want to go down that path)?
4) While questions 1) to 3) may seem logical to ask to a human brain, is the human brain self-decieiving such that the questions are actually nonsensical - like asking "why is blue?"