U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Philosophy
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-16-2014, 12:04 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
Reputation: 2027

Advertisements

The purpose of the universe

Each organism that can experience the universe determines the purposes of the universe. Only organisms that experience the universe determine the purposes of the universe, because without anything to experience the universe, the universe would have no purpose.

There is no reason why the purposes of the universe for one organism would cancel out the purposes of the universe for another organism. Therefore, different organism's purposes for the universe exist in isolation of one another. When a fox tries to catch and eat a rabbit...neither the rabbit's running nor the fox's chasing is wrong within their isolated perspectives.

Are you saying it's okay for me to eat my grandmother?

No. However, if you truly couldn't understand anything wrong with that, then within your isolated perspective it would be no more wrong than it would be for a fox to catch a rabbit. We, however, can, should, and will, do anything in our power to stop you from eating your grandmother. If you care for no one but yourself...you should remember that merely being an aggressive capitalist could allow you to coexist with the rest of us who do not want to eat our grandmothers, while having the added benefit for you of you not being blasted with a shotgun by those of us who do not want to eat our grandmothers. You could potentially become very rich and not be blasted with a shotgun. Sounds pretty good, right?

I am 114 years old. I have been a poet since I was 2. I have been told I am the worst poet on Earth 7,454,345 times. Thirty-five people vomited at once during one of my readings last week. There had been thirty-four people in that room, not counting myself. I vomited because their vomit gave me a tummy ache. People have deafened themselves with pencils rather than hear me speak. I have no skills except being a poet, and breaking open vending machines with a sledge-hammer for money. I like my poetry though. Have I failed in this life?

To other humans you will probably be a failure...but your purpose for the universe exists in isolation of theirs. Therefore, not necessarily.

Are you saying other people's opinions don't matter?
Yes...but only if they don't matter to you, and only within your isolated perspective.

So, wouldn't acting as a sort of parasite on society be the wisest path, assuming I'm still the variant of person who wants to eat my grandmother?
Two ways we can view other people are:
1. I am the only being with value.
2. Other beings have value for the same reason I have value, because they also experience this reality.

Both can be seen as correct depending on how we look at things. If we look at ourselves as part of a group, number 2 is correct. If we look at ourselves as purely an individual within a group, number 1 is correct.

It would seem like either would be logical though...even for those of us who do want to eat our grandmothers. Even if we have no emotional ties to others, it would seem like we could logically conclude others have value because we have value. Even if we do have strong emotional ties to others, It would seem like we could logically conclude I am the only being with value.

But, regardless of whether you're a #1. or a #2, the group will tend to attack parasites and reward those that are of assistance to it.

If I cloned myself, and uploaded my memories into nine clones while unconscious, and we all became conscious at the same time, which one is me?
You are the one that experiences yourself. The others experience themselves, rather than yourself. therefore, they are not you. What you are is that which experiences your perspective.

What if I uploaded my memories into one clone, passed away, and the clone with my memories lived on? Would I be dead or alive?
You are that which experiences yourself. If you experience being alive, you are surely alive. If you do not experience being alive...evidently not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-16-2014, 04:18 AM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
3,067 posts, read 2,107,384 times
Reputation: 3965
I think you basically nailed it...in that there's nothing to nail but contingency, and you described that very well. I can't argue with any of it. Regarding your two acceptable views of other people, while I do agree that #1 is a valid viewpoint, I think that it's essential (obviously--shouldn't need to be stated) that viewpoint #2 needs to be prevalent if we wish for the continued existence of society (do we, though?). Luckily (perhaps?) most people aren't intelligent enough to reach the juncture of this post, so we shouldn't have to deal with a mass of people who realize the arbitrariness of choosing one or the other. A globalized society of 7 billion psychopaths...might be fun to be apart of for my last days. I think we do trend that way, slightly. The key task will be to instill in an increasingly (but IMO not greatly let alone overwhelmingly) nihilistic society the "value" of adopting route 2 rather than route 1.

Or maybe people will all continue to be dumb enough to make this discussion moot...history would suggest that. But historically, people weren't subjected to these same conditions. I think we trend nihilist. We'll see how it plays out. For the record, I act as an adherent of #2 and acknowledge the logical validity of #2 even as I actually am fundamentally an adherent of #1. I think I speak for the entire species when I say that.

Last edited by Matt Marcinkiewicz; 08-16-2014 at 04:29 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2014, 04:37 AM
 
981 posts, read 1,093,818 times
Reputation: 1479
Default actually "life" cannot have an identity, only a person can have an identity. nt

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintone View Post
The purpose of the universe

Each organism that can experience the universe determines the purposes of the universe. Only organisms that experience the universe determine the purposes of the universe, because without anything to experience the universe, the universe would have no purpose.

There is no reason why the purposes of the universe for one organism would cancel out the purposes of the universe for another organism. Therefore, different organism's purposes for the universe exist in isolation of one another. When a fox tries to catch and eat a rabbit...neither the rabbit's running nor the fox's chasing is wrong within their isolated perspectives.

Are you saying it's okay for me to eat my grandmother?

No. However, if you truly couldn't understand anything wrong with that, then within your isolated perspective it would be no more wrong than it would be for a fox to catch a rabbit. We, however, can, should, and will, do anything in our power to stop you from eating your grandmother. If you care for no one but yourself...you should remember that merely being an aggressive capitalist could allow you to coexist with the rest of us who do not want to eat our grandmothers, while having the added benefit for you of you not being blasted with a shotgun by those of us who do not want to eat our grandmothers. You could potentially become very rich and not be blasted with a shotgun. Sounds pretty good, right?

I am 114 years old. I have been a poet since I was 2. I have been told I am the worst poet on Earth 7,454,345 times. Thirty-five people vomited at once during one of my readings last week. There had been thirty-four people in that room, not counting myself. I vomited because their vomit gave me a tummy ache. People have deafened themselves with pencils rather than hear me speak. I have no skills except being a poet, and breaking open vending machines with a sledge-hammer for money. I like my poetry though. Have I failed in this life?

To other humans you will probably be a failure...but your purpose for the universe exists in isolation of theirs. Therefore, not necessarily.

Are you saying other people's opinions don't matter?
Yes...but only if they don't matter to you, and only within your isolated perspective.

So, wouldn't acting as a sort of parasite on society be the wisest path, assuming I'm still the variant of person who wants to eat my grandmother?
Two ways we can view other people are:
1. I am the only being with value.
2. Other beings have value for the same reason I have value, because they also experience this reality.

Both can be seen as correct depending on how we look at things. If we look at ourselves as part of a group, number 2 is correct. If we look at ourselves as purely an individual within a group, number 1 is correct.

It would seem like either would be logical though...even for those of us who do want to eat our grandmothers. Even if we have no emotional ties to others, it would seem like we could logically conclude others have value because we have value. Even if we do have strong emotional ties to others, It would seem like we could logically conclude I am the only being with value.

But, regardless of whether you're a #1. or a #2, the group will tend to attack parasites and reward those that are of assistance to it.

If I cloned myself, and uploaded my memories into nine clones while unconscious, and we all became conscious at the same time, which one is me?
You are the one that experiences yourself. The others experience themselves, rather than yourself. therefore, they are not you. What you are is that which experiences your perspective.

What if I uploaded my memories into one clone, passed away, and the clone with my memories lived on? Would I be dead or alive?
You are that which experiences yourself. If you experience being alive, you are surely alive. If you do not experience being alive...evidently not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-16-2014, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,040,059 times
Reputation: 19442
Not enough coffee in me to get where you were going here, at first. Hahaha... but yeah, good post! I perceive myself to be your type #2 person. I definitely believe that we ALL are of value.

Hey, I'm not gonna lie, I even place value on parasites. They reveal to some of us, what we COULD be, if we did not seek knowledge and understanding, which acts as a lifesaver (for others or ourselves!!), which prevents us from being sucked into the black hole of selffishness, fueled by an overblown sense of entitlement. We are no better than anyone else. We are all variances of a "prototype".

What sets me, and others who are "similar" to me apart from entitled people is this... when we ask why, we don't simply formulate a silly conclusion to the answer, based on past experiences and unbacked opinions. When we ask WHY, we're bloodhounds. We do NOT cherry pick information and simply seek out others' opinions which echo our own. We look for those who are in opposition to our opinion as well. We frantically seek to prove our own opinion wrong!! In doing so, it challenges our opinion, either teaching us otherwise, or validating our original "beliefs".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-17-2014, 08:29 AM
 
2,836 posts, read 3,093,500 times
Reputation: 1399
In Count Tolstoy’s later years, he searched for the meaning of his life, and to find the answer to life’s questions. For someone who had everything in life - fame, fortune, family, freedom - he wanted more; he wanted to know why. He studied all the sciences and philosophy, as well as the great religions of the world. He consulted the greatest teachers, scientists, philosophers and theologians, but he could find none to give any answer to the simple question of existence. All that anyone could tell him was that man and the universe exists, but that there was no explanation for it. No matter how he posed the question, it all came back to the point that life was meaningless; and he knew no more than he knew before. Then, in the end, he ceased to doubt, and took solace in the certain knowledge of man’s false beliefs. See Leo Tolstoy, A Confession and Other Religious Writings (1879-82).

In 1901, Tolstoy was excommunicated from the church by the Russian Synod and placed on a watch list of subversives by the Czar's government.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-17-2014, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Duluth, Minnesota, USA
7,653 posts, read 15,333,374 times
Reputation: 6670
I always have believed that our purpose in the material universe was to love, know, and serve God.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-18-2014, 09:15 PM
 
1,234 posts, read 1,183,340 times
Reputation: 1288
A few thoughts on life's purpose and identity


It all boils down to the person's belief. Atheists accept and believe that when they die that's it. Me, however, can not. I was born and raised a Catholic. I will always believe in God. And my belief on what happens when you die is based on God's word in the bible.

The difference in non believer and believer belief's is - soul. I of course believe my soul doesn't die with my physical body.

Also life's purpose for me is to love because that will make you TRULY happy. God is love.

I say love will make you TRULY happy because the only time I experienced that happiness is with my husband. When you feel loved, you feel complete, happy and content.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2015, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
Reputation: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
I think you basically nailed it...in that there's nothing to nail but contingency, and you described that very well. I can't argue with any of it. Regarding your two acceptable views of other people, while I do agree that #1 is a valid viewpoint, I think that it's essential (obviously--shouldn't need to be stated) that viewpoint #2 needs to be prevalent if we wish for the continued existence of society (do we, though?). Luckily (perhaps?) most people aren't intelligent enough to reach the juncture of this post, so we shouldn't have to deal with a mass of people who realize the arbitrariness of choosing one or the other. A globalized society of 7 billion psychopaths...might be fun to be apart of for my last days. I think we do trend that way, slightly. The key task will be to instill in an increasingly (but IMO not greatly let alone overwhelmingly) nihilistic society the "value" of adopting route 2 rather than route 1.

Or maybe people will all continue to be dumb enough to make this discussion moot...history would suggest that. But historically, people weren't subjected to these same conditions. I think we trend nihilist. We'll see how it plays out. For the record, I act as an adherent of #2 and acknowledge the logical validity of #2 even as I actually am fundamentally an adherent of #1. I think I speak for the entire species when I say that.
I see no reason to believe we'll become 7 billion psychopaths upon reaching the same conclusions I've reached. We've been a cooperating people for hundreds of thousands of years. I'm confident we wouldn't collapsed as a people long ago if a simple philosophical realization could convert most people to sociopathic behavior.

I do think we're not good at thinking about abstract concepts like large numbers though, and that might make it seem like our society is already filled with sociopaths. First world societies are quite wasteful, for example. Stealing is easy for the average Joe to experience that instinctual negative feedback. Wastefulness though? Nope. The average Joe paid money he worked for honesty for those pieces of cheese individually wrapped in plastic. He's not going to get instinctual negative feedback for buying that cheese, most likely.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2015, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
Reputation: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
Not enough coffee in me to get where you were going here, at first. Hahaha... but yeah, good post! I perceive myself to be your type #2 person. I definitely believe that we ALL are of value.

Hey, I'm not gonna lie, I even place value on parasites. They reveal to some of us, what we COULD be, if we did not seek knowledge and understanding, which acts as a lifesaver (for others or ourselves!!), which prevents us from being sucked into the black hole of selffishness, fueled by an overblown sense of entitlement. We are no better than anyone else. We are all variances of a "prototype".

What sets me, and others who are "similar" to me apart from entitled people is this... when we ask why, we don't simply formulate a silly conclusion to the answer, based on past experiences and unbacked opinions. When we ask WHY, we're bloodhounds. We do NOT cherry pick information and simply seek out others' opinions which echo our own. We look for those who are in opposition to our opinion as well. We frantically seek to prove our own opinion wrong!! In doing so, it challenges our opinion, either teaching us otherwise, or validating our original "beliefs".
I place value on the parasites too. The only reason I'd want harm to come to them would be to keep them from harming the group. If Ted Bundy were the last living being alive so that he couldn't harm anything else, I can't be sure...but I might even hope he had the best possible life.

Because of his actions though, I think his execution was a positive thing even if merely as a message to anyone who would follow his example.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2015, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,347 posts, read 2,974,590 times
Reputation: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by meaning View Post
A few thoughts on life's purpose and identity


It all boils down to the person's belief. Atheists accept and believe that when they die that's it. Me, however, can not. I was born and raised a Catholic. I will always believe in God. And my belief on what happens when you die is based on God's word in the bible.

The difference in non believer and believer belief's is - soul. I of course believe my soul doesn't die with my physical body.

Also life's purpose for me is to love because that will make you TRULY happy. God is love.

I say love will make you TRULY happy because the only time I experienced that happiness is with my husband. When you feel loved, you feel complete, happy and content.
As an aromantic who does not feel romantic love, I see true happiness as coming from little things: the smelling of flowers, the laughter of companions, a learned revelation, etc. You do to, I'd guess. Your husband I'm sure is the best part of your life...but I bet you can find bits and pieces in other places too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tvdxer View Post
I always have believed that our purpose in the material universe was to love, know, and serve God.
And in addition to that, I'd say purposes of the universe include being a source of food for us, giving us backscratchers to scratch our mosquito bites, giving us tools to achieve our dreams, etc. Serving and loving and knowing the God you speak of, I think, must be an additional purpose. It cannot be the only purpose, because there are already so many more, constructed by life and constructed by you.

Last edited by Clintone; 10-12-2015 at 09:56 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Philosophy
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top