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Please produce empirical data to support the notion of pure unguided randomness.
The title of this thread. The Philosophy of Evolution (nature, biological, life, objective).
And then the rest of the OP especially this.
Quote:
Should orthodox Darwinian Evolution Theory be taught in public school if it is indeed classified as a PHILOSOPHY? Is it proper to teach or infer a philosophical worldview in SCIENCE class in our public schools
The title of this thread. The Philosophy of Evolution (nature, biological, life, objective).
And then the rest of the OP especially this.
Evolution is NOT a PHILOSOPHY.
How strange! No empirical data is forthcoming. I'm stunned.
The only way you folks manage to make any sort of rebuttal to anything is by ripping things out of context - which most often provides a rather back-handed affirmation of the point in contention.
How strange! No empirical data is forthcoming. I'm stunned.
The only way you folks manage to make any sort of rebuttal to anything is by ripping things out of context - which most often provides a rather back-handed affirmation of the point in contention.
think of it this way.
1) we see layered rock. Some of it is "bent" in many directions. How did it get that way? Take some guesses and figure out the best guess with what we know.
2) we see only smaller life much lower in the layers. than we see larger and smaller life forms in the upper layers.
I don't really care if you call it a philosophy. What is a reasonable story (philosophy if you need) that describes how the two simple pieces of data I gave you relate to what we see around us today?
how does it help pilosophize about "hey, how do you think we got here?"
1) we see layered rock. Some of it is "bent" in many directions. How did it get that way? Take some guesses and figure out the best guess with what we know.
2) we see only smaller life much lower in the layers. than we see larger and smaller life forms in the upper layers.
I don't really care if you call it a philosophy. What is a reasonable story (philosophy if you need) that describes how the two simple pieces of data I gave you relate to what we see around us today?
how does it help pilosophize about "hey, how do you think we got here?"
This begs the question does it not? What caused the rock to be layered? What sustains the rock? Why is the rock bent in many directions? So on...
Classic orthodox Darwinian evolutionists proclaim randomness i.e., no God needed i.e., chance - things happen because they happen - or words to that effect.
Okay, great. Where is your empirical data to support the claim of absolute random (chance) events?
May I suggest to you the science CANNOT answer this question. Why? Because the question is a philosophical question requiring a philosophical answer.
How strange! No empirical data is forthcoming. I'm stunned.
The only way you folks manage to make any sort of rebuttal to anything is by ripping things out of context - which most often provides a rather back-handed affirmation of the point in contention.
I am stunned at your lack of understanding that Evolution is not a Philosophy and your silly Misconceptions about Evolution which leads you to ask questions that no one would ask if they truly understood Evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Can science answer the question of whether or not ANYTHING can or ever has happened totally 'unguided' at 'random' with no outside 'force' or 'power' to guide, create and/or sustain it?
Your question is nonsensical with respect to Evolution. Of course science can answer this...it's the basis of Evolution.
I see we have another non-scientific Creation Myther who acts as if they understand nature and science...this should be fun!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
What caused the rock to be layered?
Look up rock cycles and you can easily find the answers to these very basic questions about rocks. The simple answer is Earths changing conditions.
Quote:
"Sedimentary rocks start forming when soil and other materials on the Earth’s surface are eroded and finally settle down, forming one layer of sediments. As time passes, more and more materials get eroded and settle on the older layers. Thus, layer upon layer is formed. The lower layers undergo intense pressure due to the weight of the upper layers, eventually evolving into rocks".
Source: Universe Today
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
What sustains the rock?
Are you really asking how are fossils preserved? Rocks are not sustained because like most Earth materials, rocks are created and destroyed in cycles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Why is the rock bent in many directions?
You really mean how are metaphoric rocks formed?
Quote:
"The changes occur when the original rocks are subjected to extreme heat and pressure beneath the Earth’s surface. They may also occur when the the original rocks are caught in the middle of two colliding tectonic boundaries".
Source: Universe Today
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Classic orthodox Darwinian evolutionists proclaim randomness i.e., no God needed i.e., chance - things happen because they happen - or words to that effect.
This is a classical Creation Myther misconception about Evolution/Natural Selection.
Quote:
Natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because a mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don't. Natural selection is NOT random!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Okay, great. Where is your empirical data to support the claim of absolute random (chance) events.
Again The genetic variation that occurs in a population because a mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way.
Genetic Drift is how random mutation works: Genetic drift
Quote:
Random = Unpredictable in some way. Mutations are "random" in the sense that the sort of mutation that occurs cannot generally be predicted based upon the needs of the organism. However, this does not imply that all mutations are equally likely to occur or that mutations happen without any physical cause. Indeed, some regions of the genome are more likely to sustain mutations than others, and various physical causes (e.g., radiation) are known to cause particular types of mutations.
I suggest you read over the Misconceptions that people like you have with respect to Evolution...it will save us pages of wasted silly questions that can most likely be found in the Misconceptions link. Misconceptions about evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
May I suggest to you the science CANNOT answer this question. Why? Because the question is a philosophical question requiring a philosophical answer.
No you cannot suggest this since science CAN answer this question...you need to ability to understand what the science is...otherwise you will continue down your lost path of Creation Mything.
Seriously? You really think I've never heard any of this before?
Yawn...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
Look up rock cycles and you can easily find the answers to these very basic questions about rocks. The simple answer is Earths changing conditions.
Begging the question - AGAIN.
Why do conditions change? Are these conditions controlled or under the control of a being with the power to create and control them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
Are you really asking how are fossils preserved? Rocks are not sustained because like most Earth materials, rocks are created and destroyed in cycles.
You really mean how are metaphoric rocks formed?
No and no. I suggest you reread the OP.
I'm not here to debate rock cycles. If I were, I wouldn't be posting in the philosophy forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
This is a classical Creation Myther misconception about Evolution/Natural Selection.
In most cases I will not waste time responding to outside sources.
If you are unable to make the case using your own mind and putting your own sentences together then you're wasting both your time and mine.
...heck, it ought to be real easy for you being that I'm supposedly such an uneducated rube.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
Again The genetic variation that occurs in a population because a mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way.
Genetic Drift is how random mutation works:
It can be stated that many things work in a non-random way. I suspect that any idiot would acknowledge this.
This does nothing with regard to answering the question about whether or not all these "non-random" events are under control of a Transcendent Being.
Are you aware of the term "efficient" or "moving" cause?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
I suggest you read over the Misconceptions that people like you have with respect to Evolution...it will save us pages of wasted silly questions that can most likely be found in the Misconceptions link. Misconceptions about evolution
Sure thing. Just as soon as you read up on misconceptions about philosophy and the basic laws of critical thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
No you cannot suggest this since science CAN answer this question...you need to ability to understand what the science is...otherwise you will continue down your lost path of Creation Mything.
YOU state it to be a myth. Your claim, you prove it.
Tell you what, I'll go easy on you. Instead of proof I'll simply demand that you make a reasonable case as to why theism is false and, by logical extension, why the atheist worldview is true.
Seriously? You really think I've never heard any of this before?
Heard of it? Yes
Understand it? Not a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Why do conditions change? Are these conditions controlled or under the control of a being with the power to create and control them?
Are you seriously this obtuse? Read up on climate changes. Climate changes has nothing to do with Philosophy nor is it under the control of some power being. We know exactly how climates change...no mystery there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
I'm not here to debate rock cycles. If I were, I wouldn't be posting in the philosophy forum.
It appears you are trying to play some sort of illogical circular argument game here. Why did you post questions about rocks in a Philosophy forum then turn around and make this statement? You don't like the answer since it does not support your Creation Myth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
It can be stated that many things work in a non-random way. I suspect that any idiot would acknowledge this.
Just as I suspect that any idiot would acknowledge that the Creation Myth is fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
This does nothing with regard to answering the question about whether or not all these "non-random" events are under control of a Transcendent Being.
The response was to clear up your Misconception when you stated this...
Quote:
Okay, great. Where is your empirical data to support the claim of absolute random (chance) events.
Now you are asking if these non-random events are under the control of a Transcendent Being? The answer is NO. It's all driven by the genes the offspring inherits from their parents. Offspring inherits half their DNA from each parent, while each parent passes half their DNA to each offspring. This is achieved through sexual fertilization not by control of a Transcendent Being.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Are you aware of the term "efficient" or "moving" cause?
Yes but it has nothing to do with the science of Evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Just as soon as you read up on misconceptions about philosophy and the basic laws of critical thinking.
I think you meant this statement for yourself. You clearly have no idea how to carry out a Philosophical discussion and you show zero ability for critical thinking. Believing in a Creation Myth does not demonstrate the power of critical thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24
Instead of proof I'll simply demand that you make a reasonable case as to why theism is false and, by logical extension, why the atheist worldview is true.
My my you certainly have it all mixed up don't you?
Now you are confusing Evolution with Atheism. Atheism has NOTHING to do with Evolution. Again here you are demonstrating that you can't even keep basic facts straight.
Now you want to know why the Creation Myth is false? It is based on faith alone and has zero supporting evidence...in other words it's based in preconceived ideas that defy the evidence of reality.
We are not going to water down science so that Creationists can try and make it fit into their narrow theological views.
The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
...heck, it ought to be real easy for you being that I'm supposedly such an uneducated rube.
Most people reading this thread can clearly see that it is really easy for him. You're just not noticing that.
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