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Old 08-24-2015, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Greenbelt, MD
8,939 posts, read 6,476,361 times
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I've been convinced for decades.

Never cared what others thought about my unpopular opinion...
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
11,037 posts, read 4,785,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PTC Dad View Post
Matadora, fair point. I'm not familiar with any other theories, but I'm in no way a physicist or philosopher so I'm heading back to my boring forums on best neighborhoods & schools for families in Atlanta.
Thanks...and just ignore the other poster who jumped in and made all sorts of wild assumptions about my post to you.

My stance was that you can't make claims about the Universe when the Universe has not been fully checked out/investigated.

My second point was that if the Universe was fine tuned for life then why is it that we don't see the Universe teaming with life?

Why is it that we can't even go a few miles into space without needing protection and oxygen if the Universe is truly fine tuned for life.

What many people don't think about is the formation of our Solar System including Earth. This planet has been here for billions of years but in the beginning conditions were not stable to support any life. It took billions of years for the Earth's atmosphere to calm down so that light from the sun could start to warm up this planet and provide the fuel needed to support the evolution of life.

Don't you find it interesting that the Earth is roughly 4.5 Billion years old and humans have only been around for the past 200,000 years?

If the Universe was so finely tuned for life to exist why did it take so long for humans to evolve?

Last edited by Matadora; 08-24-2015 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:03 PM
 
380 posts, read 161,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Wrong. Atheism is believing that God doesn't exist.

You seem to be conflating Atheism and Agnosticism.
I'm not wrong. You are.
Why don't you google those terms and see for yourself.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,572,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Does God exist?

From an empirical or experiential (not analytic) standpoint, His existence has not been proven. Nor has it been dis-proven.

Kant tried to resolve the problem by writing three Critiques, and distinguishing between them: The Critique of Pure Reason, the Critique of Practical Reason, and the Critique of Judgment.

The Critique of Pure Reason accepted Hume's argument, and in fact expanded upon it by saying that what we experience is largely a function of our way of experiencing things -- which may or may not correspond to the way they actually are.
I am very familiar with Kant's philosophy.

Kant demonstrated it is impossible to prove the existence of God by conventional logical proofs.

Dis-proven? surely you understand the it is impossible to prove a negative especially with a transcendental idea like God.

However, what Kant did in his Critique of Pure Reason is to set up a Framework and System to critical philosophy to close off [check-mate] any possibility that God can exists as real. Kant rely on the idea of the Noumenon.
The Concept of a Noumenon is thus a merely limitingConcept, the Function of which is to curb the pretensions of Sensibility; and it is therefore only of negative employment.

At the sametime it [Noumenon] is no arbitrary invention; it is Bound up with the Limitation of Sensibility,though it [Noumenon] cannot affirm anything Positive beyond the Fieldof Sensibility. A255
To affirm any positive [reify] God is illusory. One cannot even imagine God. The typical recourse to the ideal of God is via pure reason and the resultant God is an illusion.
They [idea of God, soul and cosmos] are sophistications not of men but of PureReasonitself. Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them. After longeffort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him.
Quote:
So what about God and morality? They are not apprehended by pure reason, according to Kant, but by practical reason. Kant relied on the Golden Rule (categorical imperative) as the basis for
morality, saying that an act or attitude was only morally right if one could
honestly recommend it as a universal principle, applicable to oneself as well as
others.
The Categorical Imperative is not the Golden Rule at all.
The Golden Rule is merely a sub-moral maxim of the Categorical Imperative.
Kant did rely on the idea of God to develop his Moral Framework but not 'God' in any conventional sense but only in his own specific sense relevant for his purpose.


Quote:
At any rate, I DO believe that the notion of a Creator, along with the notions of objective truth, beauty and goodness, are the foundations of correct and civilized thought.

"You can't prove it!" is the only counter to my belief, to which I say, "So what?" Must everything be proven and conform to common sense? If that were the case, even science would be in trouble.

From the standpoint of practical reason, the lack of God, objective truth and objective good is the foundation not of wisdom, but of despotism and barbarism....
Note my basis and reason why I propose we put a lid on the idea that God Does Exists and we need to establish a framework and system that sustain the proposition "100% Certainty God Does Not Exist" in the following post;

http://www.city-data.com/forum/40935344-post88.html

All evils and violence that are inspired by religions via the evil laden verses in the holy texts [especially Islam] are grounded on the 'perception' that God really exists in providing a balm to relieve the angst arising from a existential dilemma within the individual.
The jihadists covenanted with a promise of heaven [& virgins] has an obligated duty to kill because a real God that exists in their mind say so as stipulated in the holy texts delivered from God!

To maintain a convincing stance i.e. 100% certain God does not exist, provide a mean to defang such malignant impulses in SOME believers [especially Muslims] and prevent them from committing those terrible evils and violence based on the words of their supposed real God now made impotent in reality.

Thus if there is no real god exists, then what the jihadists are doing are purely based on their psychology and what is going in their minds.

I am not saying people should stop believing in God. They can do so but they must be aware it is 100% certain God do not exists.
Analogy: One can fantasize a perfect beauty in mind and to generate great sex in mind but in this case one will know with 100% certainty that beauty in their mind do not exist as real. The purpose of such an imagination is purely for psychological reasons.

Same thing with God. The ultimate purpose of believing in a God is for psychological reasons to maintain primal internal peace [eschatological salvation]. If one understand this, one could compromise that 100% certainty that God exists and contribute in preventing the terrible evils and violence that SOME believers are committing around the world.

The control is there are other people who can achieve the same [eschatological salvation] results MORE EFFECTIVELY without resorting to the transcendental ideal of God, e.g. Buddhism, Jainism. These non-theistic religion do not provide any opportunities for their extremists and those with evil tendencies to exploit the verses in their holy texts to commit terrible evils and violence.

Thus by promoting the proposition and reality it is '100% certain God does not exist' can only a win-win situation for all, i.e. eliminate religion-inspired evils.

Note: All evils must be addressed and dealt with as effectively as possible by humanity. This can be done within the Universal Moral/Ethical Framework and System. This OP relate to specifically to God related matters and evils.

I noted most posters are thinking from their personal views, i.e. self-interests. This is very natural due to the intensity of the theistic existential impulse from within. To confine to only one's personal interest is very selfish.
For this OP one need to think collectively as a concerned citizen of humanity and one's role in it.

Last edited by Continuum; 08-24-2015 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:38 AM
 
10,829 posts, read 4,146,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
great stuff till that last line. I Para phrase: lack of god (objective truth)is not wisdom but barbarism.

That is how you feel. To some of us Lack of ... , or the presents of..., doesn't invoke such seemly strong emotional responses. We just wanna know more about what's going on.

**edit** added after.

also "no god" does not mean no, or lack of objective truth. That's sleight of hand? kinda deceitful if intentional.

How important was that last line to you? relative to the rest of it?
Not that important.

If it wasn't clear, I meant that lack of God AND lack of belief in objective truth is the foundation of barbarism

When truth is merely subjective or relative, "all is permitted" as Dostoevsky might say.

Again, we can't know for sure what is objectively true empirically speaking, but that doesn't mean that there is no truth, or that there is more than one truth. I believe Plato -- a pagan by Christian standards -- would agree with me on this. So what I am saying does not apply to Plato and Aristotle.

In modern times, what seems to happen when God (seen as both a manifestation and a basis for objective truth, justice, goodness, and beauty in Christian theology) is rejected is that those associated values are rejected as well.

From the French Revolution onward, there has been an anti-religious tendency that makes those values subservient to raw power. Protagoras' "Man is the measure (of truth)" combined with Callicles (Gorgias) "Might makes right" -- both rejected by Plato -- have in modern times given us totalitarian depotism and corruption. A small group of conservative intellectuals has resisted this, to little effect. The only other resistance that I know of has come from people of faith.

Of course, now we're entering into an historical analysis, which was not my intention.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,695 posts, read 19,802,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
In modern times, what seems to happen when God (seen as both a manifestation and a basis for objective truth, justice, goodness, and beauty in Christian theology) is rejected is that those associated values are rejected as well.
.
One of the, if not them most false statements made on this thread.
A common and extremely erroneous accusation that atheists have few or no morals and ethics.
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:57 AM
 
5,012 posts, read 5,906,935 times
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The notion of there being "gods" is a very primitive way of thinking. The way we look back at the ancient Greeks and Romans for believing in the "gods" that they believed in is the same way they will look back at this time in history.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,699 posts, read 26,694,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOSS429 View Post
should i live a life of un fullfillment ( no sinning )
How is sin fulfilling?
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:05 PM
 
1,721 posts, read 1,003,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
How is sin fulfilling?
Because there many benign sins that many of us enjoy very much: masturbation, fornication, profanity, are among those I enjoy. Others enjoy homosexuality and polyandrous relationships.

These sins, and probably a few other I can't think of right now, are enjoyable inherently harmful, so those of us who enjoy them would be leading less fulfilling lives if we obstained from them just because they're ancient taboos.
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,699 posts, read 26,694,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanapolicRiddle View Post
Because there many benign sins that many of us enjoy very much: masturbation, fornication, profanity, are among those I enjoy. Others enjoy homosexuality and polyandrous relationships.

These sins, and probably a few other I can't think of right now, are enjoyable inherently harmful, so those of us who enjoy them would be leading less fulfilling lives if we abstained from them just because they're ancient taboos.
Fulfilling to me is being married to the same person, working at that marriage and enjoying a life with someone. Fulfilling to me is having a house full of kids and watching them grow up and make choices on their own. Three of our six kids are in college and it is awesome to see them make career choices. Our younger kids are involved with Taikwondo, Cheer, and basketball. It is very fulfilling to see them accomplish great things.

Fulfilling to me is to live a disciplined lifestyle, where you overcome challenges, including sin. Where you become a better person today than you were yesterday. That is fulfilling.

The items that you have listed are weaknesses. I don't see any happiness or fulfillment coming from any of those things. With each of those things the person is chasing something that can never bring them lasting happiness. Everything that you listed is all for the moment. To add, profanity shows the lower educational background and lack of cultural upbringing. It is beyond me how that specific process would ever bring anyone any kind of fulfillment.
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