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Old 08-26-2015, 03:07 PM
 
1,721 posts, read 1,002,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Considering the size of the universe and the number of stars that likely have planets (there are 100,000,000,000 stars in our own galaxy, and hundreds of billions of galaxies), you would better argue that life likely exists on a very large scale on hundreds of billions of planets.

We are just too far away to observe them.
OK, wasn't as precise/specific as I should have been. Since the apparent parameters for life are narrow; and especially narrow for complex, intelligent life; the percentage of the universe that contains life is probably very small.

Yes, since our ability to observe that which is very far away is still limited, we simply don't know. All we can do is make statistical calculations based on assumptions, but we don't know if these assumptions are valid.
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:41 AM
 
10,829 posts, read 4,141,919 times
Reputation: 4699
Quote:
Originally Posted by louie0406 View Post
The burden of proof lies on those claiming he does exist.
No, the burden of proof lies on ANYONE who makes a claim.

Both "God exists" and "God does not exist" are claims.

Quote:
Just like in a court of law. The defense doesnt have to say a word. Its the prosecutor who has to present the evidence of what they are accusing the defendant of.
The way burden of proof is handled in a criminal case has nothing to do with the burden of proof for those who make claims in general.

Quote:
Show solid undeniable evidence and we will believe you and become believers ourselves.
Show solid and undeniable evidence that God does not exist.

Good luck.

I don't understand why atheists don't simply say "I don't believe God exists."

That statement does not require proof.

Saying that God definitely does not exist calls for evidence and proof, just as much as the statement "God does exist" calls for evidence and proof.

That is why those who believe in God believe in him as a matter of faith.
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Old 08-27-2015, 03:44 AM
 
10,829 posts, read 4,141,919 times
Reputation: 4699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
So it’s not that I can prove that he doesn’t exist, it’s that it’s obvious that there’s no proof attesting to his existence
Have I said there is such proof?

No.

Quote:
and, when you look at the kind of wishful thinking that has propped up faith for millennia, there’s every reason to believe that a culture of faith is a culture of deception for children and of self-deception on the part of the adults.
You say "deception," but that contradicts your statement that you can't prove that God doesn't exist.

To deceive is to say something that you KNOW isn't true.

You, by your own admission, do not KNOW that God doesn't exist.

Quote:
The one thing I can say with certainty is that these books show no sign of being authored by an omniscient intelligence, and that really is the only thing one need be certain about to torpedo Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Bible and the Quran are deeply inadequate books on every level: scientifically, historically, medically, aesthetically, ethically, spiritually, and contemplatively. These are just not the best books we have on any topic, and they should be if they were written by the creator of the Universe.
That is just your opinion.

I think the story of Creation is quite poetic, myself.

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This is Russell’s teapot argument: can you prove that there is not a china teapot circling the sun between Mars and Earth? No, you can’t prove that. But is there any reason to think that such a teapot exists? No, and the burden of proof is, of course, on the one who asserts this seemingly outrageous truth claim.
The trouble with Russell's clever little quip (he has many of those, and considers them "philosophy") is that it doesn't address all the reasons why people believe in God instead of orbiting teapots.

You've heard one argument having to do with the cosmological constant.

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Read Genesis and come back and tell me how sensible that is when explaining the formation of the Universe and all creatures on Earth. While you're at it read Deuteronomy 13 and Judges 19 come back and tell me how sensible that is.
I consider Genesis an allegory, not a literal statement of what happened.

It raises interesting philosophical issues regarding what it is to be a self-aware human being.

Adam and Eve live in a state of blissful innocence in the Garden of Eden, but then they eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and acquire the concepts of "good and bad" and "good and evil."

Without those concepts, they are merely robots, but with those concepts they become free and responsible beings.

Just by having the notions of good and bad, they are now capable of great suffering, and thus are expelled from their Edenic existence.

Make of it what you will.

Do you think it is not impossible for great art, poetry and literature -- as well as myths -- to impart wisdom?

Great writers and philosophers have often referred to myths and to the Bible.

They don't do so because they believe myths and the Bible are "stupid."

Simply lecturing everyone on how we know so much more now than those who wrote the Bible knew raises the question, "And just where has that gotten us?"

I don't see a return to Eden or utopia anywhere on the horizon, do you?

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Religion is one huge myth.
Again, what has our greater sophistication gotten us, especially from the standpoint of morality and what philosophers call "living the good life"?

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Our current understanding of nature has changed and developed since the Bible Myth was first touted by Iron Age peasants
Iron Age? Really? I think that was a lot longer ago than when the Bible was written.

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…therefore it’s natural that science is inconsistent with those claims that were based on ignorance. Why should we revere those ancient claims as sacred when they are based on ignorance? It is intellectually lazy to stop asking questions and stop looking for physical explanation’s and just say God did it.
Nobody (not me, at any rate) is saying that science is not valuable.

It is valuable, within the realm of questions that it can answer.

But can science answer the questions, "Why do we exist?", "Does my life have any meaning beyond satisfying my animal needs?", "What is 'good', morally speaking?"

No, it can't -- and it doesn't even try to answer those questions.

But those are questions that people ask, and if they find answers in religion, who are you to criticize that?

Does science create great works of art?

Does it cause people to be funny or kind?

Not that I know of.

If you think that everything worthwhile in life is reducible to science, then I think you need to expand your horizons.

Whatever answers you come up with for yourself, I will respect.

I suggest you extend the same consideration to others.

Last edited by dechatelet; 08-27-2015 at 03:55 AM..
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:26 AM
 
380 posts, read 161,402 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
No, the burden of proof lies on ANYONE who makes a claim.

Both "God exists" and "God does not exist" are claims.
100% correct! But who is claiming "God does not exist"?
Atheists certainly don't.
As a rational people, atheists don't make such an irrational claims.

Quote:
Show solid and undeniable evidence that God does not exist.
Good luck.
Why would I, as an atheist, need to show any evidence? I don't claim anything.

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I don't understand why atheists don't simply say "I don't believe God exists."
That statement does not require proof.
Bingo! 100% correct again!
This is exactly what atheists say.
And this has been pointed out ad nauseum on this very forum, including this very thread.
Never seen it?

Quote:
Saying that God definitely does not exist calls for evidence and proof, just as much as the statement "God does exist" calls for evidence and proof.
That is why those who believe in God believe in him as a matter of faith.
.... and this is irrational by definition. Why do they chose to be irrational?
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:57 AM
 
380 posts, read 161,402 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post

That is just your opinion.
No this is not just an opinion. This is your Null Hypothesis which you have to falsify if you want your wild assertion about divine origin of Bible to be taken seriously.

Quote:
I think the story of Creation is quite poetic, myself
.
That's fine, but it does not make it divine in any way.

Quote:
The trouble with Russell's clever little quip (he has many of those, and considers them "philosophy") is that it doesn't address all the reasons why people believe in God instead of orbiting teapots.

You've heard one argument having to do with the cosmological constant.
Yeah, that's a very bad argument. Would you like to defend it?

Quote:
Without those concepts, they are merely robots, but with those concepts they become free and responsible beings.
Again, looks like a claim that must be proven to be taken seriously. How would you propose to do that?
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
14,569 posts, read 8,397,883 times
Reputation: 29131
Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
I've never understood a need to prove if god does or doesn't exist. Belief in god is based on faith, which requires no proof.

Why do some who don't believe in a god insist on denigrating those that do? If those with faith in god aren't requiring you to follow their religion and their religion helps them be a better person who are you to dissuade them from their beliefs?
Why? What is it about religion that somehow makes it magically immune to critical reasoning according to believers? (the fact that it is based on magical thinking perhaps?) If I believe that I am a unicorn instead of a person, people would require proof that my belief is true. They wouldn't just accept it at face value and tell me, "I'm sure you're right. After all, you have faith that this is true, so I must be talking to a unicorn cleverly disguised as a human being!"

So what's the difference? Why shouldn't I be skeptical of a person's belief that the world was created by a silent invisible deity whom no one has ever seen, is supposedly responsible for all the good things that happen but none of the bad, and is expected to grant eternal life to believers and eternal damnation to those who don't? That's a stretch, IMO. As for religion making someone a better person, I also disagree with that assertion. I posit that people who say their religion makes them a better person were morally good people in the first place, because ethics and conscience are innate, instinctive traits that do not require any sort of religion to express themselves in individuals.

I'm not denigrating anyone or attempting to prevent anyone from practicing a religion. People have the right to do as they legally please. I'm simply pointing out that religion shouldn't be free from logical criticism just because it's religion. It isn't special.
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Old 08-27-2015, 12:56 PM
 
6 posts, read 4,813 times
Reputation: 10
God exists because nothing [seriously] bad has ever happened to me. I'm married, have sex regularly, socialize with my friends, cherish my children, work hard at a job I love, own and live in a nice house, take memorable vacations...

All kinds of bad things have happened to me, so therefore god does not exist. I'm single and have no prospects, never have sex, rarely socialize, rent a dumpy apartment and work a dead-end job...

Last edited by Animal is my name; 08-27-2015 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Florida
4,103 posts, read 4,254,190 times
Reputation: 10036
Atheists cannot prove a god does not exist. Religions cannot prove their god is the god. Religions cannot prove anything. A book is not proof of its subject. The end.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
11,038 posts, read 4,777,962 times
Reputation: 7065
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Have I said there is such proof? No.
You say "deception," but that contradicts your statement that you can't prove that God doesn't exist.
Actually it goes right along with what I have said. That the myths are not likely true and therefore I choose not to believe in them. Choosing not to believe in deceiving myths are not a contradiction to anything that I posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
To deceive is to say something that you KNOW isn't true
That's exactly spot on. The Bible is full of lies and deception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
You, by your own admission, do not KNOW that God doesn't exist.
I am 100% certain that the God as described in all of the religious texts DOES NOT EXIST.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
That is just your opinion.
Nope it's a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
I think the story of Creation is quite poetic, myself.
Good for you! However I find Evolution much more interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
The trouble with Russell's clever little quip (he has many of those, and considers them "philosophy") is that it doesn't address all the reasons why people believe in God instead of orbiting teapots.
Sure it does. People can also believe that there is indeed this tea pot and give all their reasons for believing...just as people can do with respect to believing in a God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
You've heard one argument having to do with the cosmological constant.
This makes zero sense. Do you even know what the cosmological constant stands for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
It raises interesting philosophical issues regarding what it is to be a self-aware human being.
No it does not. You can learn to practice mindfulness and get a lot more out of that then reading a myth book written by iron age peasants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Without those concepts, they are merely robots, but with those concepts they become free and responsible beings.
You think it takes that type of story to make others aware of how to become free and responsible? Wow just wow
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Do you think it is not impossible for great art, poetry and literature -- as well as myths -- to impart wisdom?
Great art, poetry and some literature but hell no to myths!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Simply lecturing everyone on how we know so much more now than those who wrote the Bible knew raises the question, "And just where has that gotten us?"
If you need someone to explain this to you then I would say you have your head in the sand. We understand the world we live in and this knowledge is in direct contradiction to the myths touted in the various religious books. It has awakened many people to walk away from religions that tout these contradictory myths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
I don't see a return to Eden or utopia anywhere on the horizon, do you?
Until we can eradicate fundamental religion it's not going to ever happen. Think about this...how long has religion been on this planet? How much good have you seen it do for us? Not much good if you are paying attention. It is a failed institution from it's invention all the way up to now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Again, what has our greater sophistication gotten us, especially from the standpoint of morality and what philosophers call "living the good life"?
Living the good life has nothing to do how sophisticated you are. It all depends on how you live your own life and what you find important. If you don't understand how science and technology has improved life then go back in history to the iron ages and see how much better life has become for the average person compared to back then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Iron Age? Really? I think that was a lot longer ago than when the Bible was written.
I think you have no clue as to when the early Bible was written....yes the Iron Age. In historical archaeology, the ancient literature of the Iron Age includes the earliest texts preserved in manuscript tradition. Sanskrit and Chinese literature flourished in the Iron Age. Other texts include the Avestan Gathas, the Indian Vedas and the oldest parts of the Hebrew Bible. The Iron Age came after the Bronze age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
But can science answer the questions, "Why do we exist?", "Does my life have any meaning beyond satisfying my animal needs?", "What is 'good', morally speaking?"
Science is not here to speculate on these questions. Science is only concerned with explaining what we observe in the real world and on discovering new ways to understand it which leads to advancements in medicine, technology, and many areas of scientific discovery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
No, it can't -- and it doesn't even try to answer those questions.
That's correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
But those are questions that people ask, and if they find answers in religion, who are you to criticize that?
I have the right to question anything that I want especially when it comes to myths. The issue is that religion teaches people that there is only one way to go about spirituality and it's a very narrowly constrained way that actually prevents people from developing themselves spiritually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Does science create great works of art?
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Does it cause people to be funny or kind?
Well I don't know about funny but I can certainly say that there are a lot of very kind scientists and a lot of them are very funny indeed. However, that Bible you worship has stories in it that clearly showed that they have no problem with slavery or owning people and treating them like farm equipment. Neither Jesus nor his apostles couldn’t see that slavery was worth condemning. Go back in history and just look at how people were treated especially those who had better ideas than the Church. How scientists were imprisoned for life or executed simply because they had knowledge that explained the the truth of the world they lived in vs. what the iron age rulers believed. Thankfully those days are behind us and you can thank science for this!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Not that I know of.
You need to expand your horizons and take a good look around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
If you think that everything worthwhile in life is reducible to science, then I think you need to expand your horizons.
It's not what I think so save this rant for someone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
I suggest you extend the same consideration to others.
Rattled the cage I see.
Your long winded response was not necessary. You have only demonstrated that you are deluded by the myths you want to cling on to.
Don't take what I or anyone else says personally about your beliefs

Last edited by Matadora; 08-27-2015 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
11,038 posts, read 4,777,962 times
Reputation: 7065
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth View Post
Atheists cannot prove a god does not exist. Religions cannot prove their god is the god. Religions cannot prove anything. A book is not proof of its subject. The end.
Spot on!
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