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Old 10-28-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 73,996,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Imagine something similar to WW2. Don't you think people would set aside their petty differences and unify to defeat a common enemy?
Of course they would. But that is simply deflecting the hate from one target to another. There hate is there, and it is a constant, just turning its attention in different directions.

Which might explain why war is so essential as a feature in the human dynamic.
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:31 PM
 
122 posts, read 86,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Imagine something similar to WW2. Don't you think people would set aside their petty differences and unify to defeat a common enemy?
That's the problem - we are now so fragmented, and becoming so much more fragmented with every passing year, that it is difficult to picture a "common enemy" (aliens from Zeta Reticuli?). I honestly cannot picture America of 2015 coming together for any cause in the way that occurred in WW2. I wish I could, and perhaps I am overly pessimistic, but I just can't see it. I used to make kind of a game out of giving equal time to both the far right and the far left, but the venom on both sides was so depressing that I stopped giving any time to either one.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:58 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,838,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bo Pepys View Post
This was clear to me as well, but my take on it is different from yours. Most of my friends are at the other end of the social/political spectrum, but I see just as much hatred there as well. It is somewhat better-disguised at that end of the spectrum, but it is there. As a white male Christian, I have to tread very lightly in discussions of social and political issues even with the best of these friends or their fierce anger quickly bubbles to the surface.

Having lived long enough to have experienced the America that was overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly more-or-less Christian, I do believe it was generally far more harmonious than the society we have today. Of course, there were pockets of hate against Blacks, gays, etc., but in general it was a more harmonious society. "The other" is always the focus of whatever group is in power, and generally the hate does have its basis in fear. Christianity (even if it is "pretend" Christianity, as has always been the case for a large segment of the American population) is a mediating influence, notwithstanding popular misconceptions to the contrary.

The fragmented society to which we are evolving is doomed. There is, IMHO, absolutely no hope that America will survive over the long term. The glue that once held the society together, even if you view it unfavorably as "white Christian domination." has dissolved. The notion that large segments of Christians, Muslims, Atheists, whites, Blacks, Hispanics, straights, gays, et al., will ever coalesce into anything resembling a harmonious society is, IMHO, a complete and dangerous fantasy. No one in these groups views himself or herself as primarily an American, but rather as a member of his or her particular segment. Everyone else is now "the other" - a threat to be feared.

So we agree that America is changing forever, but I would substitute "ending" for "changing." I fortunately won't be here in 100 years; if America is here in 100 years, it will look like a Mad Max movie.
Some insightful points. There is this ignorant view that once the white man's power is over and "we are all equal," America will be some sort of cultural oasis free of oppression. The irreversible trend in the US isn't just that white power declines significantly. It is also that American prosperity and social cohesive will continue to deterioriate. This is partly why our national discourse is so divided and nothing gets done in this gridlock.

Jertheber raised a good question about hatred rising in America. It's hard to say whether it is really more hatred or if the Internet reveals more. But hatred is always the most fierce when things are shaking up, when people perceive unfairness and more competition, etc. I am not a white person. I would say that the hatred is straightforward on the far right and carefully concealed on the left. Because I'm not white, I do not share white liberals' sense of their own rightenousness and the evilness of the other end. In fact, I think these are just two brands of racism and hatred, expressed in two ways.

Much of the community that regards itself as hatred-free really isn't so. They forget that they have high-paying jobs, went to good graduate schools, and aren't easily displaced by people of color and new comers. In fact, as soon as such competition shows up (when I walk into "their place"), the same type of discomfort and hatred are expressed in not so sutble ways. They may be surprised at your achievements, because in their eyes you belong to the low-expectation class. They may be outright nasty and vicious. It seems to work this way: It's fashionable to criticize the stupid conservative whites, extra fun to joke about poor conservative whites, but carefully protect white dominance in one's immediate circles. It comes to how high you are above the flood and how much you think the flood will drown you.

The relatively less hatred in them is not a product of ethics/humanity, but a product of economic prosperity and priviledge. At the end of the day, hatred and discrimination rise when social cohesiveness declines. Trust fades when differences become common. This is a direct result of the policies adopted in the 1960s. These were possible precisely because the US had much more prosperity and the differences aren't so widespread. it's the Left's own medicine that created these side effects. But most would rather blame humans for their inperfectness than examining public policies.

let truth be told. Humans will never live to a time when there is no hatred, racism, or discrimination. We will, however, live to a time, even soon, when we believe there is no hatred, as long as rhetoric is effective and mouths are shut up. If economic inequality gets worse, count on there to be more hatred, not less. Hatred also isn't just between whites and everybody else. Give it enough time, it'll be everything to everything, a truly dissolved society where your distrust is full-blown on all aspects, race, gender, orientation, class, etc.

I must say that the PC crap is ultimately foolish and ignorant. Just as the white men will find themselves in a changed America, everyone will find themselves in a vicious cycle of cynicism. It might be accurate that broad prosperity and deep social cohesion are in a permanent decline like fallen leaves. Incidents and events will break hearts and shape the new landscape of this country. But the rich will fare quite well. The Republicans won't lose as they are rich. The Democrats will take it all, with an ever dependent voting block and self-perpetuating underclass. But for all of America, including clear-minded liberals like jertheber, this has been a national tragedy we see no end of.

I hope that rising powers like China, in their quest to replace our hegemony, will learn our lessons. I believe they will, as ours is quite embarassingly simple.
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:22 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,838,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
My original thoughts on the rise of hatred in this country began with a specific kind of hate that pits the working class against the poor. Welfare specifically has caused many to hate the people who benefit from it.

On the larger scale the rise of mistrust of one's own government has been the driver of much of the hate we see in regard to taxes, who pays, VS who benefits. I was positioning the large Christian populace in America against this unchristian hatred and selfishness seen so often in various web forums.

I'd be the first to agree with the notion that ignorance is at the base of most hate, and yes, the institutionalization of ignorance that passes for a public education seems to be adding fuel to the fire.
I disagree with your views on a number of accounts. First, you seem to say that people should forget what they see, keep their eyes shut, and use the christian faith to just be good christians. People never work that way. They observe, compare, analyze, and reflect. You simply refuse to see the reason behind people's distrust of government and entirely dismiss many many cases where your rhetoric of ignorance and hatred simply dont' cut it.

Second, this country isn't going to be any more christian. The christian faith will be less and less power. I am an atheist and i don't mind christianity decline, or for that matter, religion in general.

The way that this government operates invites nothing but distrust from all sides. Its fiscal irresponsility, wasteful programs and wars, failing schools, corruption, racial quotas, etc. My white liberal friends are well aware of these. They just have a life good enough to keep a smiley face on the surface. not to mention conservatives. You mention the working class. Well they are that way because they are much closer to the poor. The six-figure engineer isn't, so he/she can appear more generous, duh, they are richer anyway. The working class continues to be demonized by the Left and by those fortunate enough to be above and safe. But there really is no need and no place for this type of superiority.

you never get to solve these problems because you are working on the wrong problems. As long as you refuse to face them, and as long as you approach them simplistically, you are contributing to the hateful divisions.
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Old 10-31-2015, 05:17 AM
 
2,928 posts, read 1,525,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bo Pepys View Post
This was clear to me as well, but my take on it is different from yours. Most of my friends are at the other end of the social/political spectrum, but I see just as much hatred there as well. It is somewhat better-disguised at that end of the spectrum, but it is there. As a white male Christian, I have to tread very lightly in discussions of social and political issues even with the best of these friends or their fierce anger quickly bubbles to the surface.

Having lived long enough to have experienced the America that was overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly more-or-less Christian, I do believe it was generally far more harmonious than the society we have today. Of course, there were pockets of hate against Blacks, gays, etc., but in general it was a more harmonious society. "The other" is always the focus of whatever group is in power, and generally the hate does have its basis in fear. Christianity (even if it is "pretend" Christianity, as has always been the case for a large segment of the American population) is a mediating influence, notwithstanding popular misconceptions to the contrary.

The fragmented society to which we are evolving is doomed. There is, IMHO, absolutely no hope that America will survive over the long term. The glue that once held the society together, even if you view it unfavorably as "white Christian domination." has dissolved. The notion that large segments of Christians, Muslims, Atheists, whites, Blacks, Hispanics, straights, gays, et al., will ever coalesce into anything resembling a harmonious society is, IMHO, a complete and dangerous fantasy. No one in these groups views himself or herself as primarily an American, but rather as a member of his or her particular segment. Everyone else is now "the other" - a threat to be feared.

So we agree that America is changing forever, but I would substitute "ending" for "changing." I fortunately won't be here in 100 years; if America is here in 100 years, it will look like a Mad Max movie.
The reason for a changing society is because within that harmonious society, there were people who were not accepted. They have to go somewhere where they have control over their lives. I think you are seeing the effects of those who think differently than you and they came from your own communities.
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Old 10-31-2015, 05:57 AM
 
26,160 posts, read 15,279,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber
America certainly has its share of misanthropes, in the realm of interpersonal social relations and among those with a basic distrust of government we find the heart of hatred beating loud. Fear, and its counterpart hatred, are, in my opinion, rising in the U.S.
Yes well the only ones IN AMERICA who are not happy are those WHO ARE AWAKE and know how bad things have gotton and CONTINUE to get!!
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:45 AM
 
3,904 posts, read 3,236,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Costaexpress View Post
I disagree with your views on a number of accounts. First, you seem to say that people should forget what they see, keep their eyes shut, and use the christian faith to just be good christians. People never work that way. They observe, compare, analyze, and reflect. You simply refuse to see the reason behind people's distrust of government and entirely dismiss many many cases where your rhetoric of ignorance and hatred simply dont' cut it.

Second, this country isn't going to be any more christian. The christian faith will be less and less power. I am an atheist and i don't mind christianity decline, or for that matter, religion in general.

The way that this government operates invites nothing but distrust from all sides. Its fiscal irresponsility, wasteful programs and wars, failing schools, corruption, racial quotas, etc. My white liberal friends are well aware of these. They just have a life good enough to keep a smiley face on the surface. not to mention conservatives. You mention the working class. Well they are that way because they are much closer to the poor. The six-figure engineer isn't, so he/she can appear more generous, duh, they are richer anyway. The working class continues to be demonized by the Left and by those fortunate enough to be above and safe. But there really is no need and no place for this type of superiority.

you never get to solve these problems because you are working on the wrong problems. As long as you refuse to face them, and as long as you approach them simplistically, you are contributing to the hateful divisions.
First off I'd like to point out that my post wasn't in support of anything in particular let alone the Christian faith. What I was saying is that so many of our countrymen love to expound on their "christian values" all the while smashing someones face over what they perceive as a difference in opinion. I haven't "refused" to see the whys of government distrust, it's the hatred that I'm addressing.

Go ahead and hate the government if it makes you feel better, I certainly don't care what your thoughts are in that regard, but I am concerned with those whose hatred has gone far beyond the point of complaining, I'm thinking of the Oklahoma bomber, the uni-bomber, Ruby Ridge, David Koresh, and other misfits who would agree with you that my "rhetoric" should be brushed aside in favor of their "solutions."

I've read your posts over the years and know your talking points by now, that said, however, the mistrust of government without it's rightful corollary, the mistrust of government's corporate masters, means little and only contributes to your own grief as you continue to see these entities as a separate thing. "My white liberal friends", is this going to be your new mantra that is supposed to be of proof of anything? Unfortunate for your argument, idiots come packaged in all political persuasions.

I see plenty of liberals and conservatives with whom I have no agreement with whatsoever. Why are you seeing this as a left right thing anyway? Hatred, and all of it's vileness is quite another thing from politics, When I spoke of mistrust of government I wasn't opening the door to the usual malcontents here on CD to spew forth their political diatribes but moreover I was referring to those on the extreme side of things who openly advocate for a form of political violence based on nothing more that a misdirected hate.

Our particular form of government does allow for some push-back from the people but I'm taking about the hate, not just a disagreement. As a footnote: "Working on the wrong problems," this contention of yours that you are in a position of omniscience with regard to our socio/economic ills furthers my contention that you are sadly misinformed when thinking that your list of problems will ever be solved, or that I may wish to solve them, or even you, and you ARE working on the RIGHT problems, right?
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:51 AM
 
3,904 posts, read 3,236,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dude111 View Post
Yes well the only ones IN AMERICA who are not happy are those WHO ARE AWAKE and know how bad things have gotton and CONTINUE to get!!
OK Dude, please spare me the keyboard economy and shout out the full text of your cryptic commentary. Sheeesh, the lack of energy here on CD is appalling sometimes. Speaking of being awake and unhappy, enlighten me on what this relates to, are you looking for some justification for your own hatred?
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Old 10-31-2015, 11:27 AM
 
Location: State of Grace
1,579 posts, read 1,130,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
I'm speaking to the fact of fear as a component of hate, and I thought that putting this question in the philosophy forum could possibly render a view of the entire notion of hate as a philosophical counter to the widespread assumption of America being a nation following the Christian philosophy.

Morning!

I doubt you'll find many nowadays who assume that America is a nation following Christian anything.

Too, eyeing the government with distrust is not an expression of hate. If you believe that the government has your best interests at heart, take another look at how well that worked for the Natives. (Indians.)

I can only speak for myself, but I'm apolitical in that I've never voted for human government in my life, yet I don't hate a soul in this world, nor do I live in fear. Some of us just pay attention and adjust our sails accordingly.
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Old 10-31-2015, 04:57 PM
 
2,485 posts, read 1,838,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
First off I'd like to point out that my post wasn't in support of anything in particular let alone the Christian faith. What I was saying is that so many of our countrymen love to expound on their "christian values" all the while smashing someones face over what they perceive as a difference in opinion. I haven't "refused" to see the whys of government distrust, it's the hatred that I'm addressing.

Go ahead and hate the government if it makes you feel better, I certainly don't care what your thoughts are in that regard, but I am concerned with those whose hatred has gone far beyond the point of complaining, I'm thinking of the Oklahoma bomber, the uni-bomber, Ruby Ridge, David Koresh, and other misfits who would agree with you that my "rhetoric" should be brushed aside in favor of their "solutions."

I've read your posts over the years and know your talking points by now, that said, however, the mistrust of government without it's rightful corollary, the mistrust of government's corporate masters, means little and only contributes to your own grief as you continue to see these entities as a separate thing. "My white liberal friends", is this going to be your new mantra that is supposed to be of proof of anything? Unfortunate for your argument, idiots come packaged in all political persuasions.

I see plenty of liberals and conservatives with whom I have no agreement with whatsoever. Why are you seeing this as a left right thing anyway? Hatred, and all of it's vileness is quite another thing from politics, When I spoke of mistrust of government I wasn't opening the door to the usual malcontents here on CD to spew forth their political diatribes but moreover I was referring to those on the extreme side of things who openly advocate for a form of political violence based on nothing more that a misdirected hate.

Our particular form of government does allow for some push-back from the people but I'm taking about the hate, not just a disagreement. As a footnote: "Working on the wrong problems," this contention of yours that you are in a position of omniscience with regard to our socio/economic ills furthers my contention that you are sadly misinformed when thinking that your list of problems will ever be solved, or that I may wish to solve them, or even you, and you ARE working on the RIGHT problems, right?
You didn't make it clear what you mean as hatred. The word is used quite loosely to define whatever disagreement there is. The extreme criminal violence is terrible, but that's not my topic. If you continue to **** people off, there might be more of these extreme things. Then, you will be complaining and blaming again.

The only way to prevent the inevitable is to create the kind of soil that fosters peace and cooperation. Mind me talking about left right again. The left has created many conditions that are not in favor of its own causes. It's like they want their cause but choose to do it the hard way. It has way too many ideologies which function like the religous doctrines of the right. In order to adhere to these ideologies and principles, many causes of the left have become essentially less possible.

How are you going to strengthen your unions when you keep advocating for more low-cost labor in this market? The unity in this country is now post-peak. economic and social divisions are the new normal for a long time to come. It does benefit both political parties, but it forces everyone to look out for themselves, if they can even do that. In 20 years, it'll be crystal clear who is on the winners side and who is on the losers side. And you know what people do when they see no hope right?

The business community adapts and lives on. For every cause, from feminism to immigration, corporations have used it successfully to their benefit, once they realize that it's better to use it than fight it. So congratulations. You won the rhetorical battle. We all must love diversity, multiculturalism, urban. And we better censor our words. but you haven't persuaded people. You haven't.

Ideologues focus on intention. Real world people focus on outcomes. It is lame to start a cause and then hand it over to corporations. And the ideologues are still at ground zero, puzzled about what happened and what to do. Blacks status still hasn't changed. poverty is self perpetuating. Even more women are staying home in some classes. all this, after decades of government funding, generous grants, and public education? And you want more money invested in what can't be fixed with money?

One way to ensure that disagreement and hatred stay around in the long run is to continue to **** people off, call them names, and take what they perceive as theirs. Then you will get to hate-filled America faster. In fact, give it enough time, i'm not sure if this nation's political structure can remain. With the rich and educated having far fewer children, this country may eventually lose its many global advantages and its population may be largely underachievers in education and ambitions. By then, hatred will diversify into new things, new winners and new losers. But that type of trouble society may give rise to a dictatorship that you and me would not want to see. I think it's possible that we are just living the early phase of a broader transformation that will change this nation forever. Don't forget that Rome's decline took hundreds of years. What works and doesn't today are too soon to tell.

Before you tell people not to hate, there is something crucial to do. Don't create the soil for hatred. Don't make your cause harder to fulfill. Don't be an ideologue. Be practical and adaptive.

Last edited by Costaexpress; 10-31-2015 at 05:06 PM..
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