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Old 11-23-2015, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Fortaleza, Brazil
2,550 posts, read 4,633,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
data files being manipulated by your consciousness eehh? no, your consciousness is being manipulated by the the energy transfers through the open system we call a brain.

if you reconstruct a reciever in exactly the same form, all the particles being in the exact same state. It picks up the same "music".

And then that clone opens his eyes, and sees ME, a person who looks exactly like him.

But he has his consciousness and I have my consciousness, two completely separated consciousnesses...

I have my thoughts, and he has his thoughts. We talk to each other with completely different thoughts in each one's mind...

If I die in the next day, he will not magically become "me", since "me" is the other person, the one that talked to him in the previous day.
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:15 AM
 
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Here's a food for thought.

The most important factor of consciousness is memories, and memories are formed by experiences. We can say without any doubt that each individual's experience is different, since energy cannot be destroyed (the second law of thermodynamics). Therefore, I believe that two exact persons with the same bodies have two different awareness's.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Whittier
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Sounds like this game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(video_game)

I don't know, its a mind bender. The main point of "me-ness" is that "I" am currently experiencing the extended world. Even though it isn't proven, I'm assuming we (our consciousness) cannot be in two places at once. Our memories can however. So if there were a clone (or robot) it would be experiencing life the way I would...but I don't know if I would call it "me."

However, IF there was the ability to transfer my "me-ness"; my "self" into another body, where I am aware of my "otherness" then that would be cool and I would consider that another "me."

I guess for all intents and purposes "Alpha Me" would be the body/states where I am aware and "Beta Me" would be those cloned consciousnesses where I am not aware.

In SOMA (the game) without giving too much away, they explain the Alpha and Beta through chance; that there is a possibility that your Alpha consiousness CAN carry over and you will be aware of your new life.

In real life who knows.

This was also explored in Star Trek as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sc...ext_Generation)

I think the easiest analogy is that of a computer. The Hard Drive stores all of the data. You can backup or clone the hard drive and place that image on another computer. It is, down to the last bit, the exact same information, but now there are two drives. I would prefer a Transfer of the physical Hard Drive (the brain) or a transfer of data (brain states) (I have no idea how this would even be possible), into either a new Hard Drive or another form of technology.

And in essence if this was possible it would closely recognize the definition of a soul.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:24 AM
 
Location: california
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Seems the only way to preserve ones self, would be to have one's brain transplanted into the new body in order to maintain the same person .
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Old 11-23-2015, 12:18 PM
 
5,084 posts, read 8,038,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harhar View Post
I don't know, its a mind bender. The main point of "me-ness" is that "I" am currently experiencing the extended world. Even though it isn't proven, I'm assuming we (our consciousness) cannot be in two places at once. Our memories can however. So if there were a clone (or robot) it would be experiencing life the way I would...but I don't know if I would call it "me."
How can your memories be in two places at the same time? While memories might be transferred from you to a clone of you, that's as far as it could go with regard to memories. Of course, that assumes both you and the clone are alive at the same time. If you're dead, then it doesn't make any difference because a current comparison between you and the clone cannot be made.

The only identical-ness would be up to the point that the memory transfer is completed. However, the moment the clone is actually "activated", it all changes at that point because both you and the clone do not share the same identical space, optical views and experiences. While those differences might initially seem slight, the differences would become more significant over time as both you and the clone go your separate ways because both you and the clone would not have identical experiences.

As an example, let's say the clone is turned on and both you and it are facing each other. If the clone is on the left, he will be looking at you from the right. You, on the other hand would be on the right, looking at the clone from the left. By necessity, the point of views are going to be different because sensory input, including vision, are going to be different. Assuming you go your separate ways, the clone will experience the world differently than you, and that means memories following the clone's activation will become different. The OP is correct in that a clone of you is not going to be you even if that clone has been given all your memories up to a certain point.

Although we may be the sum total of our memories, our memories are shaped by future experiences. If our experiences are different, then our future memories will no longer be the same.

I suppose in a weird way, if the clone is nothing more than a prosthetic, then both you and the clone could share experiences and future memories of both at the same time even though you are both spatially separated. Whatever the clone sees, you'd also see in your own mind, and the other way around. But even though the clone may be a prosthetic that's integrated with you, it still isn't you in the same way that a pair of eyeglasses are not your own eyes.
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Old 11-23-2015, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Whittier
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Well its just an assumption, it could very well could be the case where we see what our clone sees at the same time, in some sort of weird quantum thing.

And since this is all unknowable as it is, I can't say with any degree of certainly what would actually happen.

If this is indeed possible it would be a first step toward omniscience, however much like the movie Transcendence you would want to be placed in a computer more so than another body.

Unless you erase part of the clones memory they would always think they were original, however Id lean toward the assumption that they would be two separate entities, experiencing two different lives.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:37 PM
 
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Some folks need to watch The Prestige.
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Old 11-25-2015, 01:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harhar View Post
Well its just an assumption, it could very well could be the case where we see what our clone sees at the same time, in some sort of weird quantum thing.
I understand your point but why would it be necessary to have a clone to allow us to see what the clone sees? We already have that capability. There are drones that can carry cameras that even hobbyists can buy. There is a proposed solar powered drone that might be used for the 2020 Mars rover mission to aid in better avoiding obstacles that the rover can't see from ground level and to spot interesting features for examination that the rover might otherwise miss. The drone would rely on the rover for instructions and commands, although it could have its own ability to find a suitable landing spot when the battery needs to be recharged.
This tiny drone costs $14 and is perfect for beginners

DJI Phantom 3 Standard Quadcopter White CP.PT.000168 - Best Buy


Admittedly, there are some drawbacks to today's drones. Flight time is limited by current batteries that need to be recharged. I know of one person said he can get about 15 minutes of flight time with such a drone. The proposed 2020 drone would only have 1-2 minutes of flight time before needing to recharge. All that could change soon with a new generation of batteries that last much longer before needing to be recharged. Another current drawback is over legal issues of invasion of privacy, potential security risks, hazard to other aircraft in the vicinity of airports, etc. As I understand it, such hobbyist drones may require a permit by the FAA to own and operate.

Here's a view of Bangkok as seen with a hobbyist drone equipped with a video camera. Best to click on the link for full screen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyOP...ature=youtu.be



Seems to me that it would be a lot easier to build and use drones, or even humanoid robotics, than to clone an identical organic replica of a person. More durable too. An organic clone of a person is still going to be a flimsy bag of bodily fluids and subject to the exact same frailties as the original.

We both agree that a clone and the original would be two separate entities with two different lives. That brings up another issue. If an organic clone that is identical to you could be made, would the clone have the same legal rights as any natural person would have? Could you terminate a clone if you got bored with it? Or would killing a drone amount to murder?
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Missouri, USA
4,254 posts, read 2,945,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar View Post
We both agree that a clone and the original would be two separate entities with two different lives. That brings up another issue. If an organic clone that is identical to you could be made, would the clone have the same legal rights as any natural person would have? Could you terminate a clone if you got bored with it? Or would killing a drone amount to murder?
I'm interrupting your conversation with another person to make a comment.

I think if we ever wouldn't view our clone's life as having the same innate value as any other person's life...we've failed as a society. Killing a clone should definitely amount to murder, and if anyone practices an idea another citi-data mentioned earlier about raising a clone and then replacing that clone's memories with memories of its deceased ancestor, that should perceived as murder, or a very serious crime. If the younger clone wants its memories replaced, it should think of it as a form of suicide. To avoid the taking of life when uploading memories into a clone of ourselves, the new clone must never have consciousness, or experience very limited consciousness, before it takes in the new memories, unless it has both its new and old memories in which case that makes things considerably more confusing.
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Old 02-13-2016, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,808 posts, read 1,581,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Off the cuff I'd say that is because you're still alive and creating two YOU timelines.

If you weren't there, the clone would technically be an exact copy of you just prior to your demise, and it would absolutely continue living the way you would live...because he's you. Seamless.
Would he, though?

Identical twins are genetically the same person (effectively 'clones' of one another), and they don't usually live precisely the same lives.
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