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So, go ahead and weigh a memory. Touch a memory. Pull an atom of 'memory' out and put it on a plate.
I have said this before: the brain is physical. A memory is a non-physical byproduct of biochemical activity in the brain.
Weigh magnetism. Touch magnetism. Pull an atom of "magnetism" out and put it on a plate.
Your error is in the assumption that everything that is ultimately physical is matter. To the extent that electrical signals can be weighed, touched and put on a plate, so can memories. Memories certainly are the product of physical forces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
The electrical impulses that create memories produce physiological changes. The biochemical activity that generate memories produce physical changes.
A memory itself has nothing to do with it.
You are still ignoring two important questions:
1. How is it that physical processes produce non-physical things?
2. More importantly, how is it that non-physical things produce physical effects? I assume you believe that memories have some causal role in our lives, which seems obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
Can you touch a memory? Can you breathe a memory? Can you scribble semi-obscene graffiti on a memory (okay, I wrote that just because it was funny XD)?
A memory has no physical reality. It is the byproduct of a physical process, but a memory is not a physical object.
See my point about magnetism and electricity above. You are assuming that the only types of physical things are physical objects. That isn't true. Try touching quantum wave fields. Try writing graffiti on whatever force governs dark energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
No. The point I'm trying to make is that a memory is not a physical object, like a wall or a chair. How are they generated by our brains? I have no idea -- all I know is that I cannot take a 'scoop' of memory and show it off to the world.
See my above responses. This is an elementary objection.
Weigh magnetism. Touch magnetism. Pull an atom of "magnetism" out and put it on a plate.
Your error is in the assumption that everything that is ultimately physical is matter. To the extent that electrical signals can be weighed, touched and put on a plate, so can memories. Memories certainly are the product of physical forces.
I've never argued otherwise. You're conflating the cause with the effect; an electrical signal is not the memory itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
You are still ignoring two important questions:
1. How is it that physical processes produce non-physical things?
2. More importantly, how is it that non-physical things produce physical effects? I assume you believe that memories have some causal role in our lives, which seems obvious.
I've already answered #2: a memory does not produce a physical effect. The physical effects are generated by chemical reactions within the structure of the brain.
As for #1, you're asking a philosophical question, which is not the focus of my argument. However, I will respond by reflecting a question back at you: can you explain how a dream is created?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
See my point about magnetism and electricity above. You are assuming that the only types of physical things are physical objects. That isn't true. Try touching quantum wave fields. Try writing graffiti on whatever force governs dark energy.
No, I am not. I am saying that a memory is not an 'object'. It's not possible to bottle a memory. It has no physical existence. There is no 'memory' particle in the Standard Model (that we have yet discovered).
I'm not going to address quantum field theory, or dark energy; in the first case, it would take this conversation far into subatomic theory, and in the second, we don't know what 'dark energy' actually is (only that it probably exists, somewhere), so it would be pointless to speculate on what effect it might have.
As to your argument that an object is not a 'thing', I'll leave that particular point to you and Heidegger, because I'm not arguing a philosophical point, but a scientific one.
I've never argued otherwise. You're conflating the cause with the effect; an electrical signal is not the memory itself.
I've already answered #2: a memory does not produce a physical effect. The physical effects are generated by chemical reactions within the structure of the brain.
As for #1, you're asking a philosophical question, which is not the focus of my argument. However, I will respond by reflecting a question back at you: can you explain how a dream is created?
No, I am not. I am saying that a memory is not an 'object'. It's not possible to bottle a memory. It has no physical existence. There is no 'memory' particle in the Standard Model (that we have yet discovered).
I'm not going to address quantum field theory, or dark energy; in the first case, it would take this conversation far into subatomic theory, and in the second, we don't know what 'dark energy' actually is (only that it probably exists, somewhere), so it would be pointless to speculate on what effect it might have.
As to your argument that an object is not a 'thing', I'll leave that particular point to you and Heidegger, because I'm not arguing a philosophical point, but a scientific one.
1. If the neuronal connection itself is not the memory, what is the memory? The subjective experience of having a memory? If so, then you are indeed making a metaphysics of mind claim.
2. You are claiming that our memories do not have physical effects. This would entail that our deliberations about our memories, which we often take actions based upon, are not the actual cause of our actions. This seems very counterintuitive. If I remember getting attacked by a bear when I went into the woods, and I decide not to go into those woods again due to fear that stems from my memory, how is it possible that my memory played no causal role in me deciding to not go into the woods? I suspect you are arguing for a philosophical position called epiphenomenalism, which is the view that our conscious experiences (qualia) have no causal connection to the physical world. That is, as I've said already, a metaphysics of mind claim.
3. You still haven't addressed how it is possible that physical stuff such as matter and electricity can produce something non-physical. Is there a single law or principle in science that supports this? If not, how is your claim a claim about science?
4. Science makes no claims about things that are outside the physical world. This is a basic fact of science. Thus, if you are claiming that memories are non-physical, that is, by definition, not a scientific claim.
Most important to this thread: In order for it to be the case that a physical duplicate would not have your memories, it would need to be possible for the same set of physical processes to produce different memories. Even granting for a second that memories are not physical (which is false), how is it possible for the same physical processes to produce different memories? Even property dualists agree that non-physical mental properties supervene on physical states. You seem to believe that physical processes create non-physical memories, but how is it possible that these physical processes do not determine exactly what these memories will be?
If you copy the exact same story to another notebook of the same model, the second notebook will not become the first notebook, they will still be different notebooks.
And someone can write a continuation to the story in the first notebook, and a totally different continuation to the same story in the second notebook.
I was thinking about the climbing the moutain thing. lets say you got hurt real bad and had a limp. The clone has every memory, would the colone limp just because?
" The only thing that clones get from the donor is a nucleus from a somatic cell, and since the memory cannot be stored in the DNA they cannot remember any experience the donor had ". So that kitty you clone wont remember you from nothing.
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