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Old 03-21-2016, 07:28 PM
 
1,882 posts, read 1,418,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
Because believing in such is a form of comfort to these people.

Of course reality is that when we die, everything will eventually fade to darkness. As you say, all of our life support systems go away. Therefore, there is no mechanism for us to even sense anything long after our physical forms perish.

But that is a scary thought for many. So believing in religion and an afterlife makes it much easier for people to accept death.

I personally feel that once we die, that's it. Slowly fade to darkness and that's all she wrote. Sad, but it is what it is.
You've made a blanket generalization in regards to why people have faith and believe in an afterlife. And you've solved the puzzle about what happens after our physical deaths: nothing happens, just fade to black. How did you become so enlightened and all-knowing?😁
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Old 03-21-2016, 07:29 PM
 
17,004 posts, read 9,968,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet View Post
What you wrote above is your opinion, not a fact.

I believe there is an afterlife because that is the only logical conclusion.
And exactly what is this logical conclusion you speak of?

Logical conclusion in fact indicates that there is no afterlife.
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Old 03-21-2016, 07:49 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,681 posts, read 69,572,290 times
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Maybe someone already said this, but the Near Death Experience survivors say you go to a heavenly place where you stay awhile, and more or less when you're ready, you come back for more fun and games, and learning.

OP, Check out Afterlife TV on youtube. Google it. There are all kinds of interesting interviews and discussions. I watch it sometimes in lieu of a bedtime story, before going to bed.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,354 posts, read 27,446,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
And exactly what is this logical conclusion you speak of?
I can give some examples....

One person can live only for 5 years and another for 100 years. The person who only live 5 years only has short time of existence compared to an eternity? Why would one person be allowed to live a full life and no another one? Why would someone have a life filled with health problems and suffering while another enjoys a lifetime of good health? Illogical.

You will never see the people you love once your life is finished? Never? Again, illogical.

Quote:
Logical conclusion in fact indicates that there is no afterlife.
That is not a logical conclusion. It is a depressing conclusion.
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Old 03-22-2016, 03:25 AM
 
26,160 posts, read 15,240,768 times
Reputation: 17235
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSD610
The answer to your question can only be answered by you and your beliefs.
Indeed.... That is the only logical answer!!

The only ppl who know FOR SURE are those who "have died and come back" and say they have seen beautiful things.....
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Kent, Ohio
3,424 posts, read 2,094,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
I'm surprised at the number of people who believe it is in any way likely that they will continue existing despite the physical destruction of their bodies. We already know there are regions of the brain that are required in order for a person to be conscious, such as the reticular formation. If that area of the brain is inactive, you are unconscious. How on earth do so many people believe that the entire destruction of their entire brain would not entirely eliminate "them"?

Hanging onto this sort of non-physical view of the self belongs in some other century. I can't believe that modern science's explanation of our subjective experience in physical terms hasn't persuaded more people to view themselves as fundamentally physical beings.

You have no "energy" apart from your physical body. You have no spirit apart from your physical brain. Those are the messages supported by the evidence. You will never "find out" what happens when you die because you will cease to exist when you die.
I agree that we are physical beings, but I'm not convinced that we understand all significant aspects of what it means to be physical. Physics employs operational definitions, and does not even attempt to say anything about the intrinsic properties of physical entities. We define an electron in terms of what it does in this or that situation, but say nothing about what it is, intrinsically. You can certainly say that an electron just is these objectively observable properties, and you can insist that there is no "intrinsic carrier" of these observable properties, but this is a philosophical stance (an ontological assertion, to be exact) that is, at the moment, utterly outside of science.

Now, if it were illogical to talk about intrinsic properties or essences (as your namesake LW suggested with his Beetle in the Box, Private Language argument, etc.), then we might have no choice but to admit that operational definitions are the best we can do, and concede that subjectively experienced properties (qualia) are just illusions brought about because we are "bewitched by language" etc. But I don't buy that, for various reasons that I have expounded upon at great length in various other threads. I think that physical systems have (or, at least, can sometimes have) subjectively known properties. There are several threads wherein I would be happy to delve into more of the details of these ideas, but since this thread is focused on what happens after death, I will simply say that the only logical answer is "we don't know" because we do not yet have anything even remotely close to an adequate theory of consciousness.

Personally, I'm inclined to say that when my physical body dies, this particular stream of conscious experiences that I think of as my "self" (an essentially ego-based concept) dies too. (An experience that is probably more or less like slipping into dreamless sleep or getting knocked unconscious, etc.) But we have good reason to feel that loss of consciousness is not always, necessarily, permanent. Whatever sense in which it is reasonable to say that "I" went to sleep last night and this is the "same I" who woke up, then, in that same sense of identity-over-time, I can't rule out the possibility that somewhere, somehow in the infinity of Being this "same I" could regain consciousness again in another physical body. We identify the "I" who is the "same" over time based on memories. Until we have a theory of consciousness, we can't say whether another physical body could, or could not, have "my" memories. There are just too many philosophical and scientific complexities to sort out before we can even take an educated guess about what "I" might eventually experience, given the infinity of Being.

I'm not afraid of death, as such, because I'm confident that the subjective experience will be essentially equivalent to losing consciousness and I've done that over 20,000 times already. It's old hat. I'm comfortable with it. If, in fact, I don't wake up, then it is no big deal because I won't be there to fret about it. Now the process leading up to death - that's a different story. I try not to think about the potential pain and discomfort involved. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that I will desire the impending loss of consciousness. There is an important sense in which death, as such, is actually our best friend.


BTW: Here are some threads in which I discuss my concerns about the nature of the "physical":
http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/2518073-can-possibilities-affect-actual-world.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/2198205-naturalistic-alternative-materialism-theory-consciousness.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/1804514-chaos-qualia-consciousness-its-time-solve.html

Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 03-22-2016 at 08:06 AM..
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Monnem Germany/ from San Diego
2,262 posts, read 2,446,054 times
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Decomposition.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Billings, MT
9,518 posts, read 7,739,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
I don't know, and no one else does either. We will, however, all find out eventually.
My sentiments exactly!
Oh, yes, some will say they KNOW, but they don't, really. They may have faith, but that isn't KNOWING!
Yes, I believe what the Bible says about the end of this Earthly existence, but that is merely faith. Nobody can prove it one way or the other.
Religious or non-religious, I don't care. You do not KNOW anything about it, and can not PROVE anything
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:04 PM
 
2,399 posts, read 2,393,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
I don't know, and no one else does either. We will, however, all find out eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
My sentiments exactly!
Oh, yes, some will say they KNOW, but they don't, really. They may have faith, but that isn't KNOWING!
Yes, I believe what the Bible says about the end of this Earthly existence, but that is merely faith. Nobody can prove it one way or the other.
Religious or non-religious, I don't care. You do not KNOW anything about it, and can not PROVE anything

But RosieSD, if (and I'm only saying "if" here, as I don't epistemologically know it to be so or otherwise not so) it is, in fact, the case that, upon death, all our brain capacity and consciousness ceases, that we will not "all find out eventually" . . . for there won't be any brain function to enable us to "find out" anything. The "us" or "we" or "you" or "I" or "they" will, at that moment of physical death, simply cease to exist anymore and the formerly-living person will simply be a lump of organic matter which begins the process of breaking down over whatever stretch of time to blend in with the rest of the matter/energy of the cosmos.

Of course, I'm sure that I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know. For I know that it is just "a figure of speech" when any of us say "we will all find out eventually" or "we will all know in the end" and similar expressions of this same idea.

Last edited by UsAll; 03-22-2016 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:14 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,868,334 times
Reputation: 3666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof View Post
I agree that we are physical beings, but I'm not convinced that we understand all significant aspects of what it means to be physical. Physics employs operational definitions, and does not even attempt to say anything about the intrinsic properties of physical entities. We define an electron in terms of what it does in this or that situation, but say nothing about what it is, intrinsically. You can certainly say that an electron just is these objectively observable properties, and you can insist that there is no "intrinsic carrier" of these observable properties, but this is a philosophical stance (an ontological assertion, to be exact) that is, at the moment, utterly outside of science.

Now, if it were illogical to talk about intrinsic properties or essences (as your namesake LW suggested with his Beetle in the Box, Private Language argument, etc.), then we might have no choice but to admit that operational definitions are the best we can do, and concede that subjectively experienced properties (qualia) are just illusions brought about because we are "bewitched by language" etc. But I don't buy that, for various reasons that I have expounded upon at great length in various other threads. I think that physical systems have (or, at least, can sometimes have) subjectively known properties. There are several threads wherein I would be happy to delve into more of the details of these ideas, but since this thread is focused on what happens after death, I will simply say that the only logical answer is "we don't know" because we do not yet have anything even remotely close to an adequate theory of consciousness.

Personally, I'm inclined to say that when my physical body dies, this particular stream of conscious experiences that I think of as my "self" (an essentially ego-based concept) dies too. (An experience that is probably more or less like slipping into dreamless sleep or getting knocked unconscious, etc.) But we have good reason to feel that loss of consciousness is not always, necessarily, permanent. Whatever sense in which it is reasonable to say that "I" went to sleep last night and this is the "same I" who woke up, then, in that same sense of identity-over-time, I can't rule out the possibility that somewhere, somehow in the infinity of Being this "same I" could regain consciousness again in another physical body. We identify the "I" who is the "same" over time based on memories. Until we have a theory of consciousness, we can't say whether another physical body could, or could not, have "my" memories. There are just too many philosophical and scientific complexities to sort out before we can even take an educated guess about what "I" might eventually experience, given the infinity of Being.

I'm not afraid of death, as such, because I'm confident that the subjective experience will be essentially equivalent to losing consciousness and I've done that over 20,000 times already. It's old hat. I'm comfortable with it. If, in fact, I don't wake up, then it is no big deal because I won't be there to fret about it. Now the process leading up to death - that's a different story. I try not to think about the potential pain and discomfort involved. Depending on the circumstances, it is possible that I will desire the impending loss of consciousness. There is an important sense in which death, as such, is actually our best friend.


BTW: Here are some threads in which I discuss my concerns about the nature of the "physical":
http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/2518073-can-possibilities-affect-actual-world.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/2198205-naturalistic-alternative-materialism-theory-consciousness.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/philosophy/1804514-chaos-qualia-consciousness-its-time-solve.html
I don't know why you believe a robust theory of consciousness is needed to know that consciousness supervenes on the physical world. Is there any major theory of consciousness espoused by a relevant expert that suggests consciousness doesn't at least supervene on the physical world?

I don't know if qualia are physical, non-physical properties of physical states or something else. But I am quite certain qualia supervene on the physical world whether that is in the form suggested by reductive physicalists or the type-2 guys such as David Papineau. It seems all of the other questions are superfluous.
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