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Old 10-27-2016, 06:04 PM
 
2,379 posts, read 2,684,951 times
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When it comes to actually killing people - in horrific ways - I hate the quote and believe that there is not much worse than killing innocent people - for ridiculous reasons.
Consider the reasons most wars happen:
1) GREED
2) PRIDE
Very rarely are there any "just" killing of innocent people in wars - because rarely all humble negotiations attempted in order to avoid it. Too quick to kill - and again, it's usually those leading the war - who failed to negotiate - who do not do the dirty work, do not have to suffer PTSD, losing loved ones, etc.

However, if I rewrote the quote like this, I'd think better of it:
"Offending people is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest things. The decayed and degraded state of moral feeling which thinks that nothing is worth offending people is much worse. The person who stands for nothing, will fall for plenty. The person who has nothing which he will stand for even if it hurts him, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
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Old 10-30-2016, 11:44 AM
 
1,962 posts, read 835,006 times
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Well in a war everyone believes they are in the right and God is on their side, so all that patriotism really amounts to propaganda and brainwashing, to get people to participate. I've never spoken to anyone who experienced war first hand that if they knew exactly what it would be like in advance of going, wouldn't have avoided it completely if they could have.

In regard to Mill, it seems like he spent his youth isolated from other children, and propelled to excel in academics, so what life experiences did he really have growing up other than what he read in books? Then he spent his whole adult career participating in and justifying colonial rule of the "barbarians"in India. Not a person whose ideas I would put any stock in.
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Old 10-31-2016, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
21,635 posts, read 14,232,924 times
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Historically, most wars were fought over or for land. Invaded countries had to fight to repel invaders, who might be themselves driven from their homes by other invaders.

A war of defense is, to me, more acceptable than a war of offense. I was always against the Iraq war, and now so many Americans have paid horrible prices for the baseless jingoism of a few American leaders. That is the very definition of an unnecessary war. The people who served their country fighting that war deserve our respect and fair treatment, but, how many American lives has it destroyed? Was it worth it?
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Old 10-31-2016, 03:40 PM
 
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Iraq was a repeat of Vietnam in many ways. The only winners were the military industrial complex and the bankers in both cases. I won't be around but maybe in 30 years ISIS will be our trade partners. It happened with Japan and Germany, North Vietnam, etc. And while we are at it, I wonder if anyone can explain if we really needed to stockpile 30,000 nuclear bombs, and what we plan to do with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silibran View Post
Historically, most wars were fought over or for land. Invaded countries had to fight to repel invaders, who might be themselves driven from their homes by other invaders.

A war of defense is, to me, more acceptable than a war of offense. I was always against the Iraq war, and now so many Americans have paid horrible prices for the baseless jingoism of a few American leaders. That is the very definition of an unnecessary war. The people who served their country fighting that war deserve our respect and fair treatment, but, how many American lives has it destroyed? Was it worth it?
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Old 10-31-2016, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,191 posts, read 9,043,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruspalinski View Post
It's from John Stuart Mill:
Quote:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
All I can think of when I read this is some grubby cowboy in an old movie saying with disdain: "Yer yella. I always knowed ya was yella." As if anyone arguing against or horrified by war is automatically a craven coward.

I believe there are always alternatives to war, but only if BOTH parties to a dispute are honorably committed to avoiding war at all costs. So long as there are warmongers and other bad actors, there will be wars, and sometimes we will be drawn into them. But it should be with the greatest reluctance and sadness. War IS the ugliest of things, and too often resorted to by those impatient with diplomacy.
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:02 AM
 
12,890 posts, read 15,376,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justus978 View Post
those who think there is glory in war....have never been in combat
exactly right!!!!
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:39 AM
 
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Interesting documentary on Showtime called Zero Days about how the US and Israel used the stuxnet malware to destroy 1100 centrifuges in Iran's nuclear enrichment facilities, and how they struck back taking down Bank of America and Wells Fargo websites and a power plant in Texas. The former head of the CIA and NASA said it reminded him of the start of the nuclear age in 1945 before we dropped the atomic bombs. We are in the age of cyber warfare now.
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Old 11-09-2016, 01:41 PM
 
Location: not normal, IL
776 posts, read 391,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aery11 View Post
Yes, I agree with what you quoted. We should never 'want' to go to war, but, if war is inevitable, if not going to war will enslave us, we should fight, and fight to win as quickly as possible.
Be careful with this line, this has lead to many unspeakable horrors as 'Wining' is an opinion and not a solid justified end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justus978 View Post
those who think there is glory in war....have never been in combat
those who think there is compromise in bondage....have never been enslaved.
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