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Old 10-18-2016, 06:11 AM
 
Location: East Midlands, UK
689 posts, read 249,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDot View Post
Here's my thinking. It is true not ONE of us asked to be born (unless there are alternate dimensions or lives, where we choose to come to this planet for some reason, which is another post for another day). But, our parents asked for us to be born. So, in my view our parents have an OBLIGATION to help us obtain a job or profession so we can live. Yes they do. Some societies understand this and help their children from day one to be successful (at least money-wise). Others don't do squat. I came from the latter.

Parents cannot birth you and then dump you on the earth and say "good luck, do everything on your own!" If that's the way they feel they should not bring any children into the world. So, yes, the circumstance of birth and what sort of parents you get is monumental in your monetary success, which trumps any hard work you can do on your own.
Exactly. My own parents never gave me the foundations I needed to cope out in the real world, so I can attest to this. I was allowed to drift and they didn't care about my grades. I didn't choose to be born.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:15 AM
 
486 posts, read 713,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy-Cat-Lady View Post
I'm so sorry. I wish you all the best of luck. Employers ask for way too much. People who made it 20+ years ago were in a different world. Now it's all credentials and background checks. You need a degree for entry level admin jobs (along with the student loan debt to keep you enslaved to a job you hate while barely making it).
Thanks. You are correct, landing any job is all about luck. At least that has been *my* experience these past 31 years that I have been in the workforce. In fact, just a few days ago, after I read the original post in this thread, I looked up some articles I wrote back in 2003, where I outlined my entire work/school experience from 1984 to 2003.

Amazingly, and I am not too proud to admit it, ALL of my jobs, ALL of them, were the result of good luck and me being at the right time and right place. I worked 18 jobs in those 19 years (I worked multiple part-time jobs at one time). To obtain those 19 jobs did not require any hard work on my part. None. I fell into most of those jobs. None of those jobs required multiple interviews, background checks, 20 page online applications and skills tests. I applied to a job, they called me for an interview, I was hired. Wow. I wish I had some of *that* luck now.

BTW, most of my current job application rejections always add the line "Good luck on your job search."

Yes indeed. Hard work can only bring you so much, good luck, bad luck or no luck will always be the trump cards in life. Again, just my opinion based upon my life experience.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:34 AM
 
486 posts, read 713,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy-Cat-Lady View Post
Exactly. My own parents never gave me the foundations I needed to cope out in the real world, so I can attest to this. I was allowed to drift and they didn't care about my grades. I didn't choose to be born.
I agree. My parents didn't care what I did during or after high school. They never even mentioned to me about going to college. I suppose at the age of 17, I should have known exactly what I wanted to do and know the exact steps to "get it done." But I was 17, I didn't know squat about life. After I graduated high school, my parents told me to get a job. They never showed me how one "gets a job" when one has never worked a day in one's life. They wouldn't even drive me to places to fill out job applications. I had to walk to places in my "good clothes and shoes." Eventually I got lucky and was hired at Arby's, only because they were opening a new restaurant in the mall and they needed someone over the age of 18 to run the slicer. Everyone that was applying was 16-17 years old, since I was 18, I was "their guy" even with no job experience.

Anyway, speaking of parental help. I was watching a TV show this past Sunday about "Sarah Jessica Parker" where they mentioned she came from a large family and her family decided to move to NYC when she was 8 years old because SJP wanted to be an actress. Then "magically" she landed parts on Broadway.

I always wanted to be animator/artist. I won awards in school for my artwork. My parents would NEVER, EVER, EVER move to Los Angeles in order for me to break into Disney. NEVER. Life can be easier if you come from supportive parents who help their children succeed. Working hard and doing it all on your own is a wonderful puritan fantasy, but rarely is it the main reason people are successful. Truly successful people ALWAYS have help and good luck (magic steps).

Last edited by peebola; 10-18-2016 at 07:50 AM..
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Whittier
3,007 posts, read 5,070,697 times
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Well there seem to be a common theme of parental neglect, but that doesn't negate hard work.

Again, as other posters alluded to, it is harder to not have "luck" or good parents, but it doesn't mean success or even simply a good life is not attainable.

Also people tend to equate a hard job with a hard work ethic. And that's not always the case. If you're passionate about gardening then you'll work hard to get better at it; if you love it then you'll put in extra hours. You don't necessarily have to be a "slave in a cubicle."

To some of the posters here, life is difficult and having horrible parents doesn't help. But if you're an adult now and have dreams or whatever else you want to do in life you need to take ownership of their neglect, disregard it and move on with your life and dreams. Other people exist in the world for you to learn from, to ask, to help you achieve your goals. This is the point about working smart.

There are always going to be people that will have more, or have it easy. You can either sit and complain about them, or you can worry about yourself, take control of your own life and try and make it better.

Most if not all of my successes have come from working hard at specific goals. None of my successes came from sitting around and complaining about other people.

------------

I wanted to leave my old job for years. The economy went to heck in 2008 and I was stuck. I admittedly wasn't working hard in my job at the time, but that was because I was building up experience and watching YouTube, reading books and self-learning about IT. I would help out with IT, I networked and got to know the department all while doing my current job. I would go on interviews for other positions and was denied, over and over again.

I did that for a few years before there was a temporary opening for an IT position. Because of the relationships I've built up over the years as well as the skills, I got the temporary spot.

I did well in those temp positions, but nothing full time, until a few years ago there was. I has to study, get certifications, pass tests, and then eventually got the job.

Now I make decent money and have great benefits. The job is as stressful as I want it to be. Some days I work very hard and others I don't.

All of this took several years with a few setbacks or false starts. But now I'm relatively happy. Sure I'd rather be on a beach or hiking someplace, but since I have to provide for my family, this is what I'll do.

-----------

Sure at this point I have the option of working harder, or trying to move up the ladder more, but I'm happy where I am. Harder work would be pointless in this case, I get that. But to say it's worthless or bull is missing the point.
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:23 PM
 
3,312 posts, read 1,859,503 times
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I can only speak for myself because I am more optimistic about others. I also know that there are talented musicians that didn't get by on talent alone. They worked really hard to get where they are now.

Hard work is useless for me. I don't know why I work so hard when nothing comes out of it. The problem is it is part of who I am. As a baby I would always fight sleep. My mom said I would never cry except when they had me go to bed. As I get older it's apparent that part of the reason I don't like sleep is it is essentially doing nothing. When I was a kid, I loved to learn and though that's fine on its own there was one day in 5th grade where I ended up peeing on my seat because I didn't want to interrupt the lesson. Also when I was little when I wouldn't understand something I'd get easily frustrated and want to give up because I tried so hard to get it so even in that short time I tried I would work my brain too hard to understand it. I would even work hard in subjects I didn't really like. Because I had a disability and didn't know it (nor did anyone else), I got Cs on average. Geometry was the worst in high school. I didn't understand it at all but being older I tried so hard for longer. I would constantly stay after school with the teacher and I would ask classmates during class if they were getting it only to end up with a D.
I did take a year or two off after graduating but once I got into college, I didn't go looking for a job partly because I wanted to focus primarily on my studies so I worked very hard to get good grades. Even though it was a for profit college, some subjects were still difficult. It got so difficult that I wanted to quit. My mom insisted I keep going so I worked really hard trying to understand the material. One class I had to take twice and couldn't understand it even with my mom's help.

Though I worked hard in school, I have been working even harder to get a job when I have looked for work. In fact even when I'm not actively looking I'm trying SO HARD to be motivated. Because I'm the type of person who needs to make money to be happy with myself, I did penny sites at the same time. For a while I would do them literally all day and skip meals/hold my bladder. I didn't think it was right to do anything until I was done. It was okay to do them for a while but after a while it gets old. I have been a little better with them. I try to limit them to a few hours by ditching the sites that aren't as good but I still do them too much because I always want to complete the daily goal and I have to do all the surveys and such from emails. I can't stop until they are all finished. I have tried taking a break from them because they are just not worth it anymore but every time I do it is like my body punishes me because I feel literally fatigued. I can't do anything else because of this feeling and I get really upset with myself.
Some people think I'm not trying hard enough I guess because I'm not looking everyday at the job listings but I have looked so much at sites that tell you how to get a job and I think constantly at night about jobs. Last night though I wasn't thinking about jobs, I couldn't sleep because I was thinking about what to write on this post. Even though it's just a message board, I am a stickler for my spelling so I even work hard with that though it does come easier to me with a writer's soul.

I not only work hard in job seeking or education but it seems I have to work hard at life. Growing up, I had so many things happen to me that I had to work hard just to stay sane/not fall apart. They put me in therapy for a while and it wasn't helping so I stopped and decided to try and get through it on my own. There was one time where it got so bad that I thought "if I wasn't afraid" I had to work my brain so hard just to keep the suicidal thoughts out of my head.

I will even play just as hard as I work. I don't like games like Candy Crush because they're a little too simple. I guess it's okay to want something more challenging as long as I'm enjoying it but sometimes I take it too far because for example when I do the dance game I get really frustrated when I don't get all 5 stars on a song.

My brain will never stop turning those gears. It just won't quiet so I don't know the meaning of the word relax. The job seeking aspect is definitely the biggest problem. On the rare occasion I have been fortunate enough to get an interview I try so hard to be what they want and they just don't want me. The worst part is I have to work harder than everyone else because I don't have it in me to lie. On those rare times in my life that I lied, you can see completely through me so in an interview or even a personality test I have to try to spin the truth positively and it doesn't work.
I know though that there is something special about me and I know I would be an employer's dream because I would always do my best to please them/make the money but unlike those talented musicians, I'm not sure I can market it. I don't fit in anywhere and I'm not so good at basic things so it has been impossible to convince employers to hire me. For example as I mentioned before writing comes easier to me. I can easily write paragraphs upon paragraphs as you can tell so I have thought about being a chat support person but the problem is there are hardly any jobs that want someone who can just communicate in written form, you still have to be good at communicating verbally and I'm terrible on the phone especially.

All I really want out of life is to be in a relationship with my kindred spirit and be financially independent but no matter how hard I work I can't seem to achieve this. I really have my work cut out for me because being the unique person I am I connect more with the poet/musical types and they are difficult to reach. Still I have a sliver of hope because I have seen signs but I know it's not going to be because I work hard. I also do know that even if a guy isn't shallow (if he was shallow I wouldn't like him), it is looks that get you in the door because if for some reason they can't get to know you your looks are all you have to go on. I can have a pretty decent body too but if my face is not up to par then my chances are small. I don't see myself attracting a guy I want with this baby face. Even in school the guys I liked never liked me. I know that if a guy I was interested in got to know me and see beyond my deficiencies, I would be great for him because I am confident that most of the time I'm not like any other girl he's dated and this can be a good thing but being so quiet IRL again how is this going to happen especially when the guy is already hard to reach. Because I don't see how I'm pretty I tend to settle so any guy that I've been with asks me out and there haven't been that many. I know this is not good because the guy I'm settling with is going to get hurt..it is already happening but I don't know what to do.
This hurts me in jobs too. Not only do I not have enough documented work experience, I have the face to match my lack of experience so no matter how hard I work I will never be thought of as old enough to work even though I technically am. I know employers think of me that way because at the pet store where I applied to the guy immediately said I thought you were younger.


One of the very few things I am thankful for is my dogs and I didn't get them by hard work. Yeah I worked hard to save the money so I can give the girl's owner the rehoming fee but other than that I just stumbled upon her. I wasn't really excited about her until I met her because when I really looked for the dog I wanted I couldn't get them. I even seeked out rescue groups and I tried my best to look good for them and they wouldn't accept me.
I'd like to think that this would happen for a job since hard work is not doing anything but I'm never lucky otherwise. On this app I do to earn gift cards, there have been plenty of days where it will give me multiple entries but I never win them. If there is enough competition with something I want (or sometimes even something I don't really want hence the app I just referred to) I don't get it.


So because I know I'm not getting anywhere by working hard alone, when I found out I could have a disability I went to get help in the job aspect.
The funniest thing is the more I'm active with seeking help the more has gone wrong. A little while ago I applied to a new organization to help me find a job. Not only have they ignored me but it's almost like a domino effect because most everyone else is being uncaring. We are having more problems with the landlord since (he was the one staff member I never liked but I at least tolerated him before) and in danger of losing the apt. A non profit that is supposed to be able to help pay for expenses won't help until my mom gets the apt organized for Section 8. Section 8 used to be nicer. This is also a minor thing but just the same it is very funny to me. Last night since we always get pizza when we watch a certain show to save money used a coupon and they have always taken it but they didn't this time. Also we finally get a car we like and a couple weeks ago got in an accident so ended up having to pay the deductible to get it fixed. It was a minor repair but all the same, this never happened with the junk heap car mom had for years. This proves to me even more that the universe doesn't want me to get better and wants me to suffer.

Last edited by Nickchick; 10-18-2016 at 01:45 PM..
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,179 posts, read 9,010,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Uh, no one is forced to work, putting aside slaves.
We are all forced to work. The very definition of work is doing something you'd rather not do, in exchange for money. If you don't work, you don't have food, clothing, or a roof over your head ... or at least you have a bare minimum of those things and people are still trying to get you to work and earn it for yourself.

What was meant by not forcing people to work is to reboot the social contract and provide everyone with a guaranteed basic income, with additional income optional if you want to put in the effort. Most of Western society is now prosperous and productive enough to afford this, thanks to technology. I favor it. I think it would improve the quality of life overall for most people. Imagine the power workers would have if they did not have to work under threat of penury. An employer dumb enough to exploit you over this fear would quickly find out that you would vote with your feet. Once workers don't have to put up with employer's crap, employers will no longer be free to cut corners and disrespect employees or denigrate them as "human resources".
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,179 posts, read 9,010,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDot View Post
Here's my thinking. It is true not ONE of us asked to be born (unless there are alternate dimensions or lives, where we choose to come to this planet for some reason, which is another post for another day). But, our parents asked for us to be born. So, in my view our parents have an OBLIGATION to help us obtain a job or profession so we can live. Yes they do. Some societies understand this and help their children from day one to be successful (at least money-wise). Others don't do squat. I came from the latter.

Parents cannot birth you and then dump you on the earth and say "good luck, do everything on your own!" If that's the way they feel they should not bring any children into the world. So, yes, the circumstance of birth and what sort of parents you get is monumental in your monetary success, which trumps any hard work you can do on your own.
I think there's a balance. As a parent I had an "18 and out" philosophy. That was in the 1990s. These days with the shrinking of the middle class, the soaring cost and yet the utter necessity of higher education, parents here in the US where higher education isn't free might have to modify that to at least "22 and out". But I consider that unnatural.

I was eager to be on my own, and it never even crossed my mind to hit my parents up for help. Or that they had not done everything that they were supposed to do for me. Parents exist to teach a child to dress and feed themselves and get along in society and to show up on time for things and so forth. If a child hasn't learned this by the age of majority then they aren't going to learn it. Sink or swim.

My wife's kids were born later than mine so while we are almost the same age her kids are younger, one is struggling through his last year of college and hopefully will be done come spring finally with his undergraduate work. Since he has mental health issues I cut him some slack. He will probably live with us for a year or two before he goes to grad school or takes up a trade or whatever he ends up doing. I'm not a complete hardcase. I love him like my own and I know he needs extra support. So the rules aren't hard and fast but all things being equal children bear a greater and greater share of the responsibility for their own lives as they get older. They generally neither need nor benefit from helicopter parenting and being shielded from all their mistakes.
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Old 10-21-2016, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,179 posts, read 9,010,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peebola View Post
I always wanted to be animator/artist. I won awards in school for my artwork. My parents would NEVER, EVER, EVER move to Los Angeles in order for me to break into Disney. NEVER. Life can be easier if you come from supportive parents who help their children succeed. Working hard and doing it all on your own is a wonderful puritan fantasy, but rarely is it the main reason people are successful. Truly successful people ALWAYS have help and good luck (magic steps).
I am not one who believes that parents should devote 100% of their life force to their child (or 400% to their four children, if they want no resentment from any one of them). If I had a child who was a talented artist I would probably not move to LA to "break into Disney" as that's a low-demand, high-supply, hyper-competitive situation that's almost a recipe for failure. I would help you get scholarships to a good art school, encourage you to do your best, and suggest a career in industrial films or advertising or TV, where, perhaps, you might eventually segue into something more glamorous if you're really good AND you actually turn out to love it as much as you think you will (that doesn't always happen).

I think maybe good parents sometimes bring their children down to earth to do what's doable.
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Old 10-21-2016, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,179 posts, read 9,010,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickchick View Post
This proves to me even more that the universe doesn't want me to get better and wants me to suffer.
You're ascribing agency to the universe. The universe doesn't "want" things. It's indifferent. That's the actual problem.

You are suffering from an inadequate social safety net in a country (I assume you're in the US, if not forgive me) that still suffers from an overdetermined love affair with the Protestant work ethic.

I believe people should work, but that people like you who are willing to work should be ABLE to work, and that people who work full time should be paid a living wage so that they are not subjected to an existential crisis when a pizza coupon expires.

Sadly our society is not committed to full employment, a living wage, or a social safety net. If you really want to do something about it, vote progressive. I am sorry your existence is this hard; it doesn't have to be, even if you have anxiety issues or whatever; our society is wealthy enough to improve everyone's quality of life and reduce everyone's suffering.

Unfortunately all i can do is wish you better luck. I hope it gets better, and quickly.
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Old 10-23-2016, 11:40 PM
 
61 posts, read 29,025 times
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"Success" is 80% good luck an 20% work.

Folks, we have all been lied to about what work and success actually are. Of course every human being has to do some kind of action in order to meet the basic needs of survival: food and water.

However, what has been happening in civilization for centuries now is the sanctification of work.

In other words, "they" have turned work into a sort of cult by ascribing both good feelings to it and also by directly using the concept of work as a barometer for an individual's worth. Put another way: your value has to be earned and then rewarded in small allotments.

Why did those in power corrupt the concept of work? To motivate the masses to meet their own selfish needs.

By excelling(being more useful) in the corporate cult an individual hopes to be rewarded with a somewhat comfortable, if soulless life. (edit: A cookie cutter life that is constantly being sold to us as THE standard of middle class success.)

Of course, most people dream of a type of success where they can either leave the cult behind altogether(pay their own ransom and check out) or they dream of rising up in the cult and ruling over the lowly workers.

And this is where luck comes into play because the cult actually has a disdain for hard work at the top. Hard work as a virtue is a foul lie made to keep those in the trenches toiling away. It's a way to keep people humble.

The people in control hate humility. This is why moving up in the cult is more about meeting the right people and making social connections or being born into social connections.

They will always tell us that success comes from hard work but actually success is about power and leverage and both of these are murky concepts(on purpose) and both of these are usually given instead of earned.

Earning is a lower class thought process by people trying to make themselves whole in a system stacked against them, powerful people are already whole.

Last edited by Burke_D; 10-23-2016 at 11:52 PM..
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