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Old 02-21-2017, 03:47 PM
 
20,359 posts, read 16,507,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthur View Post
The OP's premise is based on an assumption that they are right and the government is wrong. The average person has a perspective on issues that is without knowing all the facts. The government may know much more then you and is basing their decision on information that can not be released to the public.

When I worked as an engineer the saying that we all knew was don't assume anything because you know what the word assume means, it means you are an ASSuME for assuming and guessing what the truth is. The point is if you don't want to regret what you did or said in the past to first get all the important info first before you decide who is right and who is wrong.
The founding of our country is based on that assumption..our forefathers believed the prevailing government was wrong, set about separating and forming our own country via the Revolutionary War. Glad they didn't think like you.
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:13 PM
 
12,690 posts, read 9,923,089 times
Reputation: 9477
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoByFour View Post
Who defines the morality involved? Those who write the laws of the land. So if your opposition breaks laws, you will be found to be "morally" wrong and sent to prison. But if your opposition prevails and you change the laws to adhere to your idea of what is morally correct, then you are following the prevailing moral code and you have done the right thing.

In other words, the winner writes the history books and writes the laws. Morality is not universal, it is plastic and is defined by the laws of society.

The anti-Vietnam war movement was large enough that it brought down a president (Johnson) and ultimately succeeded in getting us out of Vietnam. By that outcome it was a moral movement. If it had not succeeded it would have gone down as an illegal, immoral movement.
But there is an enormous problem with this view....it basically amounts to "might makes right", which can be used to justify all manner of awful acts that a government could commit.
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Old 03-04-2017, 12:16 PM
 
12,690 posts, read 9,923,089 times
Reputation: 9477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthur View Post
The OP's premise is based on an assumption that they are right and the government is wrong. The average person has a perspective on issues that is without knowing all the facts. The government may know much more then you and is basing their decision on information that can not be released to the public.

When I worked as an engineer the saying that we all knew was don't assume anything because you know what the word assume means, it means you are an ASSuME for assuming and guessing what the truth is. The point is if you don't want to regret what you did or said in the past to first get all the important info first before you decide who is right and who is wrong.
I don't think decisions that require classified/secret information is what the OP had in mind. What are you thinking of? Citizens protesting the amount of funding that goes to nuclear fuel rods in submarines by refusing to pay that amount in their taxes? If that was the issue, then I might agree with you, but otherwise, no, you have to be very careful not to open yourself up to blind obedience to authority of the kind displayed by the subjects of Stanley Milgram!
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Floyd Co, VA
3,414 posts, read 5,114,602 times
Reputation: 7221
What the founding fathers thought:

From the Declaration of Independence

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:13 PM
 
1,967 posts, read 835,006 times
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You are right. But almost all of the Jews in the concentration camps were conformists as well. The ones who survived mostly conformed and kept their heads down as well as most of those who died.
There's a better movie than the one you mentioned. Giancarlo Gianinni starred in a 1975 movie by Lina Wertmuller called Seven Beauties. It's about a concentration camp inmate who survives by making love to a hideous female Nazi camp commandant. There's a scene where one of the other prisoners yells out "I had enough of this sh*t" and drowns himself in a huge swimming pool sized latrine filled with sh*t. But Giancarlo's character survives.
When you refuse to conform you are crushed, whether it is in a concentration camp or in society as a whole. You can chose not to personally participate in evil deeds, but every taxpayer is complicit in all the evil and all the good their tax dollars are spent on.
If you go to school, or work, or pay taxes, you are a conformist too. If you weren't you would be kicked out of school, fired from your job, and be subject to arrest by the IRS for tax evasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Conformism. It's called conformism. No matter how nicely you paint it over. Conformism is accessory to a crime.
A movie comes to mind.. Inglorious Bastards... In it, is a great example.. A Frenchman in his best intentions hiding Jews under his house floor. Watch it. He never actually pointed them out to a German officer. He simply conformed to what he way saying.
Conformism.

Last edited by bobspez; 03-06-2017 at 03:25 PM..
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:39 PM
 
1,967 posts, read 835,006 times
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Actual it is used by the government to justify all manner of awful acts it commits. I voted for Nixon in 1972 because he promised to end the Vietnam war. But Saigon didn't fall until 1975. Despite all the protests, US military involvement in Vietnam lasted almost 15 years. The one thing it did accomplish was the removal of the draft. But without any draft, we have been involved in Afghanistan and Iraq for 15 years. Might does make right in the sense that they don't have to justify themselves to anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
But there is an enormous problem with this view....it basically amounts to "might makes right", which can be used to justify all manner of awful acts that a government could commit.
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Old 03-06-2017, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Wyoming
9,394 posts, read 17,331,646 times
Reputation: 14028
It is most certainly not morally wrong to protest, in a peaceful manner, against anything you THiNK the government is doing wrong. Your phrase, "when you know they are in the wrong," makes me question just how you know when they are in the wrong. Most likely you're just like me and 300 million other citizens who have opinions, or you know what the government is doing is not good for you or for those you hold dear right now. But how about 50 years from now? How about for others who you don't know?

As a former newspaper editor/publisher, I personally knew a great many politicians, from the city council to the White House. Most studied issues hard and did the best that they could in their elected offices. Most. Some should never have held office, imho, but they were elected by a majority, so they had the duty to do what they believed was right as long as it was legal and during their term. For the most part, at least, elected officials know more about an issue than you or I do, and that would include the editor me. They have that "insider information" that's illegal when trading stocks but imperative when making hard choices in the political world. That would be doubly true for our representatives in Washington. Most politicians, believe it or not, are generally doing their best to be good representatives of their constituents. They WANT to make informed choices, and they want what's best for all, especially if that all includes their own constituents. They want your input, and they want a good argument for why your choice is the best choice.

The U.S. Constitution was set up to last, and it's done well for 250 years because it can be changed -- not easily, but that's why we have Amendments. Our political leaders never know how long they'll be in office, because they can be voted out in 2-6 years or they can be impeached.

Work within what can be legally accomplished, and you won't be far wrong. Become politically active -- locally, statewide and nationally. Speak up and be heard, but before you do that, study the issue from all sides and be relatively sure that YOUR stand on an issue is the best stand, at least for you.


If your "to go against your government" is illegal, step lightly. It's not morally right to break laws without a damned good reason, and even then it's likely not too smart. Criminals forfeit some pretty important citizen rights when they cross the legal line and get tossed behind bars.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:07 PM
 
Location: California
30,542 posts, read 33,365,250 times
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It's tricky. KNOWING your government is in the wrong via proof of lying or illegal deeds is one thing, KNOWING your government is in the wrong because your utopian ideals aren't reflected in reality is something else. People aren't always correct about what they think they KNOW.
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Old 03-22-2017, 05:58 PM
 
Location: encino, CA
866 posts, read 415,495 times
Reputation: 1138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleinie View Post
Take the Vietnam War for example, during that time do you think any of those that may have gotten drafted but decided to choose say going to prison over fighting were wrong? Of course during that time the U.S had never ending propaganda that communism was the most awful thing to ever exist and decided to send people to war for their own selfish and megalomaniac reasons but for those that saw through it and would choose prison over fighting would you view them as the ones in the wrong for defying what the government told them they were supposed to do?
For me, it is morally correct to stand up against crime and corruption wherever it occurs and NO government is above the law - not even the U.S. government! In fact our government might be getting to be the most corrupt entity on the planet since it is run by the very corrupt Super Rich. I would not have gone to Vietnam to increase the profits, wealth and power of the stupendously rich International Bankers.

Last edited by jimrich; 03-22-2017 at 06:13 PM..
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Old 03-22-2017, 06:19 PM
 
6,089 posts, read 2,809,893 times
Reputation: 15435
Nope- Freedom of speech is A-OK . To take a stand is what more should be doing instead of allowing the ego driven to decide.
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