Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I just don't understand why so many people find a miserable existence preferable to the idea of eternal nothingness.
If someone has almost no quality of life -- i.e., never-ending pain, extreme poverty, no loved ones or friends that s/he truly cares about (and vice versa), and no fulfilling work, interests or hobbies -- in short, a life with absolutely no happiness or comfort and virtually no possibility of his or her life improving at all -- then why do so many people have the idea that even for those truly miserable people, being alive at all is still better than being dead?
Can anyone explain that to me?
P.S. I am definitely not talking about or suggesting any kind of euthanasia, but I would just like to understand why some people insist that ANY kind of life is preferable to none at all.
Alive + Miserable = Anything could (and sometimes has) happen(ed). Dead + Eternal = Nothing will.
Yeah, ditto that. You can't experience nothingness, so it's not two sides of the coin. There is a lot, and I mean a LOT, that I don't like about life on this planet. However, it's all that there is. And occasionally I stumble across things I enjoy or new ideas. So, a choice between something and nothing, right now, I'll take something. If I should become seriously ill or we get EMPed, then nothing might be better.
If you are "being" you are not dead. You still exist.
When you are truly dead, you are NOT. Hence, the second part of your premise has no substance to it.
Also, I am not convinced with the first part of it either. Your criteria of happiness. But it is not the point of this conversation, so I shall pass on that.
I know what helps with questions like this. Being touched by death. Feeling it. Life changing, mentality changing experience.
People want to help a person change their situation through medication, exercise, a sense of purpose, housing, social groups/activities, paid work, and mental health therapy. The treatment for pain can include some of these things. There are people who live with brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, burn injuries, arthritis, amputations, etc. who still enjoy life. They may just have to do things differently. And that's where rehab is important (i.e. PT, OT, speech).
Now some people are brain dead, have a profound condition where they are not even oriented, etc. Their lives are a little different. I guess some people (i.e. family) hold onto hope that the situation will improve. I don't want to get all political, but this probably isn't the ideal way to live.
Some of us are eternally optimistic that tomorrow will be better or else we're just curious enough that we want to stick around to see what will happen next.
Some of us care about how we will be remembered. I for one would not want the stigma associated with suicide. That's the one thing everyone would remember - and pity - me for. I prefer to be remembered for how I lived, not how I died.
Some of us care about how we will be remembered. I for one would not want the stigma associated with suicide. That's the one thing everyone would remember - and pity - me for. I prefer to be remembered for how I lived, not how I died.
But really, who cares (inspired by the OP's username here) how you're remembered when you're not conscious to perceive such things? A big part of the stigma against suicide is this issue you mention--vanity about one's legacy. I think this exists because of the failure to truly comprehend what it means to no longer exist. A majority of people subscribe to some sort of afterlife fantasy, and along with such beliefs go imaginings about 'looking down' on the living world from an egocentric POV. Hell, even I as an atheist have oftentimes imagined what it would be like to be able to observe my own funeral and to observe people's reactions to news of my death and things like that. But ultimately from a selfish point of view, the concern of posthumous reputation should not matter to a person in the slightest. Because you'll never know what it is. To the extent that it matters, it *should* matter only in its relation to one's impact on other people...and thus out of concern for the welfare of those people. But this is idealistic.
I just don't understand why so many people find a miserable existence preferable to the idea of eternal nothingness.
If someone has almost no quality of life -- i.e., never-ending pain, extreme poverty, no loved ones or friends that s/he truly cares about (and vice versa), and no fulfilling work, interests or hobbies -- in short, a life with absolutely no happiness or comfort and virtually no possibility of his or her life improving at all -- then why do so many people have the idea that even for those truly miserable people, being alive at all is still better than being dead?
Can anyone explain that to me?
P.S. I am definitely not talking about or suggesting any kind of euthanasia, but I would just like to understand why some people insist that ANY kind of life is preferable to none at all.
Is your query along the lines of why so many people are against the idea of other people killing themselves, or is it more of wondering why people who seem to endure a miserable existence do not kill themselves?
It's impossible to genuinely know the sum total of another's experience they are having. Someone who appears to be living a life that would seem intolerable, may be having a different sort of experience. And those who seem to be having a life that is pretty good to an outsider, might be unbearable in experience.
I remember being stunned when I read that Bernie Maddoff's son suicided. He still had much more than many people materially-speaking, he had at least one child and a wife, he still had money and a lovely home, all things that many people don't have and think they would greatly enjoy...it might mean everything to them. Or the UK nurse who was pranked by radio djs and revealed confidential information about a member of the royal family, and when she learned the truth, she suicided. I make the assumption that the shame or guilt that these two people must have felt was so encompassing so as to override all that was still good in their lives. Or L'Wren Scott. To me, her business failing and perhaps Mr J moving on romantically, well, I think "But you were so beautiful and could have started another business and found a much more interesting man than narcissistic Mr J!" (just my opine). Yet to her...she must have felt so very different.
And then the flip side. People who seem to have nothing, and their lives appear so miserable as to be inhuman, yet they may find a joy in a tiny thing, like a daily cup of coffee, or a dog who visits, or their sexy adventurous avatar in Second Life. And that little thing can spark a joy big enough to dilute the experience of chronic pain, or social isolation, or despair about one's prospects, physically or situationally. A homeless person can enjoy nature and freedom and socially unacceptable behavior in a way that everyone who is part of mainstream social world can't (or maybe I should say probably doesn't). The man who wrote The Diving Bell, Jean-Dominique Bauby, he mentioned pleasures he experienced and things he enjoyed even though he couldn't move or speak.
Having myself been in various states of health and fortune throughout my life, I can say that there are certain upsides to the experience of illness and low income that would never have occurred to me as possible before I experienced them, and certain downsides to wealth and health that I would have never ever realized had I not had an opposite experience.
Well, I use the term upside and downside to convey a point but it's really neither of these...it's just the recognition that no life experience, no matter how sublime or awful in the moment, is completely unwanted or completely wanted. It's always a mix, the ratio adjusting all the time. And those who focus on the wanted, however much or little of it is going on in their life, seem to have a more enjoyable experience, no matter what is currently happening.
It's really all about what an individual is experiencing. And nobody else can ever judge that for another. Not really. Because to judge, we would have to have all information available...in other words, be that person.
But really, who cares (inspired by the OP's username here) how you're remembered when you're not conscious to perceive such things? A big part of the stigma against suicide is this issue you mention--vanity about one's legacy. I think this exists because of the failure to truly comprehend what it means to no longer exist. A majority of people subscribe to some sort of afterlife fantasy, and along with such beliefs go imaginings about 'looking down' on the living world from an egocentric POV. Hell, even I as an atheist have oftentimes imagined what it would be like to be able to observe my own funeral and to observe people's reactions to news of my death and things like that. But ultimately from a selfish point of view, the concern of posthumous reputation should not matter to a person in the slightest. Because you'll never know what it is. To the extent that it matters, it *should* matter only in its relation to one's impact on other people...and thus out of concern for the welfare of those people. But this is idealistic.
You make a very good point. It shouldn't matter how other people remember me because I won't exist and will be beyond caring. But somehow, to me, it does matter. It is a reflection on my personal character. I would feel a profound sense of failure knowing that I was taking the coward's way out.
The impact on other people matters to me, too. Whether it's the people who find me dead and must deal with my remains or the friends and relatives who care about me and are shocked and hurt by my death, I just don't want to do that to them.
I have no fantasies about an afterlife. I think there's no difference between dying and never having been born. In both cases you don't exist.
That said, I do believe that assisted suicide under medical supervision should be legal for those who are terminally ill, are in unremitting pain or have no quality of life left. I don't believe in making people suffer if there's no remedy for it.
I don't think you ever fully get over the fear of death, but the idea of it slowly becomes less scary until you get to the point where it seems like it will be sweet relief from the physical and psychic wounds you've accumulated.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
