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It might be a choice in the sense that you can choose to get in a car accident because you chose to get in that car but even in that sense it's unlikely to be a choice many times. No one chooses to suffer with depression and many other illnesses.
Because suffering is a direct consequence of where you place your ultimate reliance in life.
Suffering is involved with how pain is handled.
Its got nothing to do with pleasure.
But that doesn't entail that removing all suffering would remove free will. I agree that free choices can often produce suffering. But that doesn't logically imply that free choice can only exist if suffering exists. Free choice can also produce laughter, but surely no one would claim that eliminating all laughter would eliminate free will itself.
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Originally Posted by jonesg
Are you really this confused?
I'm not really sure what you are asking me. I disagree with your statement about suffering and free will, but I don't think I'm confused on the issue. Maybe I am, but this is a discussion forum nonetheless.
Elimination of suffering would violate free will.
A person only needs to worship God to the extent that their ego is kept right sized.
No it wouldn’t. There are 100s of situations and examples where their suffering does not violate free will. One example is chronic pain conditions. That’s also like saying cops violate free will when they stop a crime. Free will is just an argument believers make up to try to justify the existence of god. A strong believe in god is a mental illness, or at the very least ignorance.
Even if I grant you that (which I shouldn't), why wouldn't a 'perfect' deity create a world without free will, in that case? What function does the existence of 'free will' of Its creations serve from the perspective of the deity? The hypothetical deity should not need to create something to confirm the knowledge It should have (assuming Its perfection) that were It to create a grand planet-wide morality play involving 100+ billion humans (using historical population here, not just the population at present) with decidedly mixed natures, the results will be decidedly mixed. A perfect, 'all-knowing' divine entity or combination of entities would know this in advance and refrain from going ahead and 'creating' the chaotic, suffering-plagued planet/universe we experience on a daily basis here. If that being/beings were to exist, of course.
Why would an all-knowing deity give humans free will and then punish them for using it? And why create imperfect humans when you already know (because you are all-knowing) how that'll turn out?
And if there is only one god, why does Psalm 82:1-2 state:
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?"
I struggle as a person and have my own moments of personal despair. Yet, all I receive from other people is the self-righteous speech about needing God or if I don't choose him or his way, than I will get eternal punishment....
Those are people who are blindly by false religions.... You can worship YOUR GOD anyway you want to.... The best way is to do it by yourself.....
I struggle as a person and have my own moments of personal despair. Yet, all I receive from other people is the self-righteous speech about needing God or if I don't choose him or his way, than I will get eternal punishment. Sometimes I just feel like I'm the only person on the planet who feels a certain way. And if there are only two options of eternal reward vs. punishment and these other people all think only their belief is true anyway, than where's that choice.
I wish people understood and sympathized instead of being callously self-righteous. I still believe God exists, but I don't want to worship him especially if I have to give up my entire individuality to be of him. Even if he is the truth and every other belief like free will is effectively true, I can't understand even liking God or wanting to worship him. I guess I'm even bitter or angry at God, but so what if people get angry because some person tricked or made a mistake to you.
Not sure where you live but it sounds you've talked to a bunch of pretty closed minded people. Hopefully you can find people you can talk to that will give you real life solutions and advice.
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Originally Posted by ghostee
I still accept the free will argument as a valid point, but the system as it exists depresses me. Now, I know that life isn't all bad stuff either, and I'll admit that a mix of both good and evil is even desirable. However, what's going on as bad today is too overwhelming.
What "system" are you talking about? I believe a lot of life is perspective. You say what's going on as bad today is too overwhelming. I don't know if you mean personally or just the world in general. Either way, just keep in mind life has always been challenging. Sure people have problems today, but life expectancy is at an all time high, there are no massive pandemics that used to wipe out 40% of the population in a give area, technology and medicine keep advancing, global deaths from conflict are at one of the all time lows in the past 2000 years.
You feel that way bek of 2 possibilities
You are very strong and successful way more than me
Or you have not hit bottom ever
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