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Consciousness is very trivial to me, as I know what it is.
All I am saying is - one has to be conscious to be aware of consciousness. Thus, a priory, consciousness exists.
If you want more flowery definitions, knock yourself up. I really don't mind. Yet, whatever definition YOU will come up with, will:
1. require consciousness to produce
2. be your judgement of the topic
Will it make you feel more entertained if I will call it amalgam of cognitive transitions fluctuating from eternal source? As some like fancy vague definitions over simple clear ones.
Look, here's a basic definition.
Consciousness is origin of everything we know. It is its creative force. Everything is conscious, on the nature side, as its function. Everything is, on the intelligent side, conscious that it is conscious.
Consciousness thus gives design and order to, otherwise, amorphous Substance, everything comes from (that unknown to science Substance, otherwise erroneously called Dark Matter).
And there you are. It's that simple.
In eastern teachings, Consciousness is Brahman.
In, say, Christianity, it is Alpha and Omega.
It is also known as Tao.
Names many, essence same.
PS. Even to create this thread, someone had to have consciousness.
No, consciousness, intelligence and language skills are required. My dog is conscious, but she lacks the intelligence to create threads on internet forums.
Chimpanzees are conscious and intelligent, but lack the requisite language skills to communicate with humans. They could perhaps communicate with each other if taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Even if it was a programmed machine, its programmer had to have consciousness to create program. No matter how far back in this chain you follow, there has to be something, that is conscious.
Your problem stems from your total inability to grasp the rudiments of consciousness.
Consciousness is the product of chemical reactions among highly specialized brain cells.
Humans are not the only conscious organisms on this Earth.
There are many life-forms that are conscious, because they also have chemical reactions taking place among highly specialized brains cells. However, they lack either the requisite intelligence or language skills or both to communicate with humans.
The fact that they lack intelligence or language skills does not make them any less conscious than humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Ergo, consciousness exists.
Thread title: Consciousness is real
Love exists, too, and so does hate and a great many other things and you can find them with consciousness in box over yon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
It does not say "Consciousness is independently or objectively real".
And, yet, that's what you're claiming.
That which is objective exists independent of the knower.
I'm sitting in a chair. That chair is an object and objectively real. The chair exists whether I'm conscious or not. If I lose consciousness, the chair still exists. If I cease to exist, the chair still exists, for other can come and sit in the same chair.
That which is subjective is wholly dependent on the knower. If the knower ceases to exist, so does all that is subjective and subjectively known to the knower.
Consciousness is not real, since it cannot be quantified or measured.
The electromagnetic waves in the brain are not the product of consciousness, rather they are the product of electrochemical reactions among the highly specialized brain cells.
The electrochemical reactions may result in consciousness, but consciousness does not produce the electrochemcial reactions.
Consciousness is not an object. It is nothing more than chemicals interacting with highly specialized cells in the brain. When you die, your consciousness ceases to exist.
You're mistaking correlates for causes.
So far no-one has been able to add up the neurons, dendrites , networks and get subjective experience.
Theres a gap in our understanding that proves intractable.
I sometimes think that consciousness is the greatest lie in the universe. Everything else would make sense in that everything is a bunch of matter crashing into other matter without a rhyme or reason. Consciousness needs a reason for why things are the way they are. How is it that, statistically, as far as we know, life is incredibly rare in the universe. It is almost like it isn't supposed to be there at all.
I sometimes think that consciousness is the greatest lie in the universe. Everything else would make sense in that everything is a bunch of matter crashing into other matter without a rhyme or reason. Consciousness needs a reason for why things are the way they are. How is it that, statistically, as far as we know, life is incredibly rare in the universe. It is almost like it isn't supposed to be there at all.
Already told you - consciousness IS reason everything is the way it is. Everything is conscious as its function. To me, the most preposterous idea is to believe that organized universe with its laws and order and intelligent life "simply happened". There is very strict science( so much beloved by materialists in their arguments) called statistical probability. It is as science as it gets. It gives spontaneous whatever organization ZERO chance. Statistically improbable. Of course, materialists graciously prefer not to refer to that science.
But, if you consent to view that everything is conscious as its function, then you have to consent to view that consciousness was before everything and "made everything tick".
Already told you - consciousness IS reason everything is the way it is. Everything is conscious as its function. To me, the most preposterous idea is to believe that organized universe with its laws and order and intelligent life "simply happened". There is very strict science( so much beloved by materialists in their arguments) called statistical probability. It is as science as it gets. It gives spontaneous whatever organization ZERO chance. Statistically improbable. Of course, materialists graciously prefer not to refer to that science.
But, if you consent to view that everything is conscious as its function, then you have to consent to view that consciousness was before everything and "made everything tick".
As you said, statistically improbable. That is not the same as statistically impossible. If there is a 1 in one trillion probability of life arising on a planet, and you look at 10 trillion planets, it is not only possible but very likely for life to arise somewhere. This is a concept that many people seem to have trouble understanding.
For a real world example, see electron tunneling. Electrons flowing on one side of an impermeable barrier are occasionally detected on the other side of the barrier. They did not pass through the barrier. There is a small but non-zero probability of the electron existing on the other side.
Consciousness is not real, since it cannot be quantified or measured.
The electromagnetic waves in the brain are not the product of consciousness, rather they are the product of electrochemical reactions among the highly specialized brain cells.
.
I wouldn't say consciousness is not real, just because it can't be measured. Perhaps someday we will have a consciousness-meter.
But I agree with the second part for the simple reason that no one has ever observed consciousness that persisted after the death of the brain. I'm open to the idea if anyone could show convincing evidence of consciousness not linked to a living brain or nervous system, but as yet I have not seen it.
It leads to some very interesting questions (I'm not sure we can answer):
Is a worm conscious? A bacterium?
Could a computer become conscious?
How would we know when a computer went from just processing data to actually being conscious?
DesCartes walked into a bar.
Bartender says "want a drink"?
Descarte says " I think not". !
and just like that ....poof* he vanished.
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