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Old 06-25-2010, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Its a Surprise!
198 posts, read 810,206 times
Reputation: 126

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last months bill was about 220 with aps

4100sqft
pool pump runs everynight
at least 1 computer on 24/7 plus a laptops

 
Old 07-09-2010, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Phoenix AZ
5,920 posts, read 10,437,079 times
Reputation: 9226
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonS View Post
last months bill was about 220 with aps

4100sqft
pool pump runs everynight
at least 1 computer on 24/7 plus a laptops
Last months bill was $160 with APS, no pool , new 18 seer a/c unit, R50 in the attic. 1500 sq foot, thermostat stuck @ 78.

According to aps - "similar sized" homes in my neighborhood payed $220.

Last month wasn't very hot.

sign up for budget billing and expect to pay around $125 a month, all year for 750 sq foot.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Goodyear,AZ
310 posts, read 958,549 times
Reputation: 185
When I had my 2 bedroom apt my electric bill was typically about 50-60 dollars during winter, my highest summer bill was 165.00 for electric- my apt was 1100 sq feet 1st floor, water was typically about 15-20/month. The apt was in SRP territory
 
Old 07-10-2010, 06:12 PM
 
537 posts, read 1,233,928 times
Reputation: 534
There are different rates with APS. I checked online last month and I had saved $1000. in the last year over the standard rate. I've been using a time and demand rate for 25 years and doing very well. I tell my friends I get my power from Costco. The secret is that I also have natural gas for the water heat, dryer and cooking. I have an electric range in the garage (Off peak use only) run my spa off peak and heat my house with the electric heat pump off-peak only. I keep house as cold as a trauma center and have bills that are half what my neighbors pay. I have always been happy that I had APS rather than SRP. My AC conked out on the 4th. of July. I have keys to the neighbor's house across the street. They went to their cabin in Pinetop for the summer. They have a new 16 seer Trane unit. It took ten hours to drop the temp ten degrees. I wasn't impressed. My old 10 seer Rheem dropped my temp ten degrees in a little over two hours after it was fixed. I always thought Trane was the best, but I'm not so sure anymore. I just put a new Trane 13 seer rooftop heatpump on a rental house and that seems ok. Am I getting off topic? By the way, my APS rate is called "Combined Advantage" noon to seven pm on peak, everything else really cheap. You have to be careful on this rate. Beware of the smart meter. It's coming and already here with APS. Some PG&E customers are paying up to 50 cents a kilowatt for some of their power.
 
Old 07-10-2010, 06:23 PM
 
537 posts, read 1,233,928 times
Reputation: 534
I forgot. My rental house is in east Phoenix in an SRP area irrigation and power. I just put a new 200 Amp service on the house and noticed that the house has a Smart Meter. PG&E customers are having fits over the huge increases in their electric bills after installation of the smart meters. It seems that they never field tested the smart meter. Their reliability is unknown and supposedly they can be easily hacked since they have two way wireless communication. Some people there are dual metering with a second old fashioned meter to keep everything honest.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Phoenix AZ
5,920 posts, read 10,437,079 times
Reputation: 9226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desertspiritsteve View Post
There are different rates with APS. I checked online last month and I had saved $1000. in the last year over the standard rate. I've been using a time and demand rate for 25 years and doing very well. I tell my friends I get my power from Costco. The secret is that I also have natural gas for the water heat, dryer and cooking. I have an electric range in the garage (Off peak use only) run my spa off peak and heat my house with the electric heat pump off-peak only. I keep house as cold as a trauma center and have bills that are half what my neighbors pay. I have always been happy that I had APS rather than SRP. My AC conked out on the 4th. of July. I have keys to the neighbor's house across the street. They went to their cabin in Pinetop for the summer. They have a new 16 seer Trane unit. It took ten hours to drop the temp ten degrees. I wasn't impressed. My old 10 seer Rheem dropped my temp ten degrees in a little over two hours after it was fixed. I always thought Trane was the best, but I'm not so sure anymore. I just put a new Trane 13 seer rooftop heatpump on a rental house and that seems ok. Am I getting off topic?
Your heat pump is likely too big for the house - at 110 degrees it's supposed to run all the time. If it cycles on-and-off every 10 minutes it'll never reach peak efficiency and you'll pay too much for electricity all the time.

Testing specs for A/C units require the unit to run for a minimum of ten minutes before you take any readings, because it takes that long to equalize pressures and get the refrigerant moving.

Newer "high efficiency" heat pumps have two stages - on "low" they'll provide 50-70% of rated cooling capacity, running longer, but drawing much less power during the time they do run. Having the blower "on" more circulates the air and allows the unit to evenly cool your house.

SEER ratings are worthless in Phoenix, they don't reflect "real-world" conditions when making the ratings. 82% of the rating is made at temps below 82 degrees - fwiw, I turn my air on at about 80 degrees outside temp.

Here's a real-world example, based on Goodman info since it's readily available on the web.

I'll use 105 degrees, since in my area, we hit 100 a few weeks ago, and we won't drop below 100 much until October.

a Goodman GSZ13036 (3 ton 13 seer cheapie):

pulls 3.51 kw @ 105 degrees outdoor temp, and 75 IDB and 1425 cfm

a Goodman DSZ18036 ( 3-ton, two stage, 18 seer)

pulls 3.04 kw @ 105 degrees outdoor temp, 75 IDB and 1406 cfm.

They can use the same air handler & blower. so blower power is effectively a nothingburger.

In this real-world situation, the 5 points of seer rating doesn't save you 40% (5 seer x 8%) in energy consumption, it saves you 14%.

Again, using a worst case scenario - a VERY "loose" 1500-2000 Sq foot house and highway robbery per KW hour, we're talking $200 a month for cooling x 6 months.

15% of 200 = $30, x 6 months = $180 per year, X the cost of upgrade ($3k~ish??) = 15+ year payoff. = breakeven @ best.

By replacing an old unit that was originally rated @ 8 seer, you've already gotten a 5 seer "bump", and truthfully, after 10-20 yrs, probably an 8-9 seer "bump" if you figure the blower wheel & coils are "furry" and clogged with belly-button lint.

It might be worth a few bucks to upgrade, and no one needs to lie or distort the truth to get me to upgrade, but it isn't worth thousands of dollars to get a high seer upgrade for most people.

Further, since the "average" house has 20-30% duct leakage there's alot more money to be saved with a bucket of duct mastic and a roll of hvac-approved tape, or more attic insulation, or weatherstripping, or cfl's, or all of the above.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
27,806 posts, read 37,842,567 times
Reputation: 17387
I put in a 16 seer last year replacing a 10. My APS bill dropped by 1/3 for comparable usage in spite of rate increases. The measured amp draw of the units is precisely what one would predict from the SEER - though I don't know if the BTU output is what was advertised. I agree with those who say upgrading to save money doesn't make sense. It will be a long time, if ever, that I would recover the costs - even with the 1500 tax credit I got . My old unit was 20 years old, tired and noisy though so I figured sooner or later. The extra coin in my pocket is a plus, though.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Phoenix AZ
5,920 posts, read 10,437,079 times
Reputation: 9226
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
I put in a 16 seer last year replacing a 10. My APS bill dropped by 1/3 for comparable usage in spite of rate increases. The measured amp draw of the units is precisely what one would predict from the SEER - though I don't know if the BTU output is what was advertised. I agree with those who say upgrading to save money doesn't make sense. It will be a long time, if ever, that I would recover the costs - even with the 1500 tax credit I got . My old unit was 20 years old, tired and noisy though so I figured sooner or later. The extra coin in my pocket is a plus, though.
I don't have any accurate numbers from last year to compare against - our a/c was 22 yrs old and our first utility bill last year was $550 with no one living here (remodeling) and the temp set @ 82

This year, according to APS, we're running 30% lower than "similar homes in the neighborhood", but we've changed so many variables that there's no way to really know which one was the most effective. We did a heat pump, windows, doors, attic insulation, "airtap" water-heater, new appliances, cfl's, weatherstripping, etc, which all reduce our consumption, but we also set the a/c @ 76 degrees instead of 82.

I'm eagerly awaiting my July-August bill to see what peak temps do to the numbers.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
27,806 posts, read 37,842,567 times
Reputation: 17387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman View Post
I don't have any accurate numbers from last year to compare against - our a/c was 22 yrs old and our first utility bill last year was $550 with no one living here (remodeling) and the temp set @ 82

This year, according to APS, we're running 30% lower than "similar homes in the neighborhood", but we've changed so many variables that there's no way to really know which one was the most effective. We did a heat pump, windows, doors, attic insulation, "airtap" water-heater, new appliances, cfl's, weatherstripping, etc, which all reduce our consumption, but we also set the a/c @ 76 degrees instead of 82.

I'm eagerly awaiting my July-August bill to see what peak temps do to the numbers.
Wow. That's a lot of mods. So far I have resisted the temptation to "spend" my savings on a lower themostat setting.

BTW, I also have combined advantage and agree it is a great way to save if you can manage the demand charge. My load controller (APS requirement when the house was built) conked out a few years back. It was nice because you could just set it for whatever demand load you wanted to live with. We use timers and pay attention now. With the noon to 7 pm, it is quite easy to comply.
 
Old 07-11-2010, 01:55 PM
 
537 posts, read 1,233,928 times
Reputation: 534
Good information here Zippyman. I live in a 60 year old central Phoenix house. My split Rheem heat pump may be a bit oversized, but I keep it set at 72 degrees all year round. It runs a lot. I have about 15 inches of blown fiberglass insulation in the attic. I replaced my windows with double pane windows some 20 years ago and added Roll-a-shields to all windows and glass doors at that time. Most of the rolling shutters are left closed all the time. My lighting is LED and CFL except the fridge light and the garage door opener. Split A/c heat pump units are the only way to go. My air handler is in a closet in the house. I'm pleased not to be losing the residual cold from that to an attic or a roof top. The rolling shutters do a great job of keeping heat and evil doers out. If I had an electric water heater in the garage, I would certainly look into a heat pump water heater. Three times more efficient, heats water and air conditions the garage. Looks to me like they cost around $1500. and qualify for a huge energy credit. Some of them are hybrid. I have a friend in Paradise Valley that recently remodeled and put in two Trane 19i systems. Amazing units. Two compressors in each unit. These really do run all the time. Outside all you hear is click....click...click. Very quiet units. I thing she paid $24,000. for the pair installed.

Last edited by Desertspiritsteve; 07-11-2010 at 02:21 PM..
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