CityScape experience (downtown Phoenix) (apartment complex, lofts, condos)

[Bondurant]

Originally Posted by observer53

Some of the facilities (the CVS, the gym, and the soon to be opened Oakville grocery) are primarily for the people who already live and/or work downtown or plan on doing so. Same with the bowling, to some extent, although there isn't another bowling alley (especially a shiny new one) for quite a distance. Then, remember that it is nowhere near all open yet. The fact that you see it as a strip mall with bowling, a gym and a CVS speaks to synapse's post about the fact that it is hard to tell what is there because most of it is turned in on itself. As others have said, let it get finished, and give it some time.

Very true. But when I read about CityScape it's treated as an attraction. People I work with have made trips downtown to visit and leave disappointed. As it stands it's very useful to those who live and work dowtown but does not offer much for others. I guess that's really what my beef is. Plug away at the future, by all means, but I don't think it's wise for the folks behind the project to hype it up at it's current state.

[Yipster]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Most of the activity downtown was north of CityScape, at the street level restaurants & at the light rail stations..

I hope Mayor Phil and city leaders are paying attention this. Tall buildings aren't the be all and end all of urban development.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by Yipster

I hope Mayor Phil and city leaders are paying attention this. Tall buildings aren't the be all and end all of urban development.

This is a good observation, for example, most of Paris is height restricted to essentially mid-rise buildings and it's one of the most vibrant cities in the world.

BUT don't discount the fact that tall buildings are more dense and therefor bring more people (employees) to downtown in order to build up that foot traffic.

[Bondurant]

Originally Posted by nickw252

This is a good observation, for example, most of Paris is height restricted to essentially mid-rise buildings and it's one of the most vibrant cities in the world.

BUT don't discount the fact that tall buildings are more dense and therefor bring more people (employees) to downtown in order to build up that foot traffic.

Great point. Most European cities are like that. Downtown Phoenix is fine the way it is. Some people want to see the gap filled between downtown proper and the built up area on N Central. I don't think that needs to be. People need to realize what needs to be replaced to see that happen.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Very true. But when I read about CityScape it's treated as an attraction. People I work with have made trips downtown to visit and leave disappointed. As it stands it's very useful to those who live and work dowtown but does not offer much for others. I guess that's really what my beef is. Plug away at the future, by all means, but I don't think it's wise for the folks behind the project to hype it up at it's current state.

Well, they have to start letting people know it's there, at least. But, with all the changes they made during the development process, I don't think they did a good job of letting people know what was ACTUALLY going in vs. what people expected based on the early plans. That would be the source of disappointment for a lot of people who go visit it. Is it a VAST improvement over the park it replaced? Yes. I miss the park in some ways, but this is a better use of the property than that turned out to be.

I'd be very surprised if they don't have some special events/large publicity planned for when it is completed.

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Great point. Most European cities are like that. Downtown Phoenix is fine the way it is. Some people want to see the gap filled between downtown proper and the built up area on N Central. I don't think that needs to be. People need to realize what needs to be replaced to see that happen.

I agree that Phoenix's skyline is tall enough as it is.

What I disagree with is the gap between downtown and midtown being fine the way it is, I think it should be filled in and this is the area where more height is needed.

[observer53]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

I agree that Phoenix's skyline is tall enough as it is.

What I disagree with is the gap between downtown and midtown being fine the way it is, I think it should be filled in and this is the area where more height is needed.

Needed for what? Aesthetics? Until and unless things change A LOT economically, there is no demand (need) for more office space or residential high rise development in that "gap" area.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by observer53

Needed for what? Aesthetics? Until and unless things change A LOT economically, there is no demand (need) for more office space or residential high rise development in that "gap" area.

I agree with you...I really don't get why people say the area between downtown and midtown needs to be filled in?

Why? Are we out of room in downtown? Is there a lively scene in downtown and midtown and this gap is causing some sort of break between the two?

All building in this gap would do is further stretch downtown and make it that much less walkable. In my opinion it's already a shame we even have a midtown. Had all the buildings that are in midtown been built south of the I-10, we would have a much much better downtown with twice the buildings and easily more than twice the residents living in downtown. There are plenty of parking and dirt lots in downtown proper that need to be developed long before we even think about developing the gap between.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by observer53

I'd be very surprised if they don't have some special events/large publicity planned for when it is completed.

They already had a huge event when the place "opened" with music and other events, it was actually pretty cool and there were a ton of people there. I don't see them doing anything else as a "grand opening" as everything else now will come online one by one, not all at once like the first phase sort of did.

I think the problem is how some have said on here in that Cityscape is being marketed as some sort of destination itself and it really isn't. What are destinations are the places within...like the Lucky Strike Bowling. Or the upcoming Stand Up Live comedy club. Or the Sam Fox restaurant "Arrogant Butcher" and the Rasputin Vodka Bar. People in Phoenix seem to be so used to have these huge master planned projects that they expect for the whole place to be like a sort of Disneyland...like Westgate where it's not just about the stores/restaurants but also about the fountain and huge electronic billboards.

Someone earlier said that downtown needs a "Westgate" and I couldn't disagree more. The last thing downtown needs is some sort of huge master planned project that turns in on itself and people go visit it and then get back in their car and go home without ever wondering around on the other streets around.

What downtown really needs is more business...more stores, more restaurants, more entertainment venues...and all spread out across downtown in the unused place, like the Luhr's building ground floor, or some of the warehouses...and mix those in with some new construction. Downtown as a whole needs to be a destination, not just a single project within downtown. I mean think about other cities...why do you go to their downtowns? Personally I go to walk around, to people watch, to do some shopping...just to enjoy urban life. Why do people go to Mill Ave here locally? It's not for just some specific thing...its just to be out among people really. The problem with downtown now is that there are too many blank spaces...theres a restaurant here and one there but there is a lot of nothing in between and that isn't inviting.

[pr0zac]

I went down there for the "grand opening" a few weeks ago and wasn't impressed. Think 3rd Street Promenade before the renovation (I'm talking Pee Wee's Big Adventure era).