New tallest building FINALLY coming to Phoenix! (Scottsdale, Tempe: fit in, brokers)

[Magnum Mike]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Once again, you're right on the money. It baffles me how the FAA seems to have no issue with skyward laser light beams and towering mega resort hotels in Vegas, but they throw an idiot fit over a proposed 500 foot tall highrise in downtown Phoenix.

I certainly hope so too ... but I just have a funny feeling that this CityScape project will either be scaled back, delayed, or not built at all. I hate to be negative, but I've seen too many skyscraper projects fall to the same fate in this city ... either because of the pathetic NIMBYs/preservationists, the FAA sticking their noses in, cost overruns, material shortages, etc.

The powers that be at City Hall can do their part by not pandering to the pencil pushing bureaucrats (FAA) who know little or nothing about highrise architecture. They should also quit giving in to the old f.a.r.t.s. (the NIMBY types who are fanatically against relatively tall structures).

<Sigh> It's sad Valley Native, that progress towards vertical development in the city's central core is always hampered, if not by the NIMBY neighborhood groups, but by somebody else that wants to create an obstacle; in this case the FAA.

When I walked by the site about a week ago, there wasn't any work going on, just a couple of pieces of heavy equipment and a few trenches in the ground, and it didn't look like any work had been done in weeks.

[Bummer]

Originally Posted by Magnum Mike

<Sigh>

When I walked by the site about a week ago, there wasn't any work going on, just a couple of pieces of heavy equipment and a few trenches in the ground, and it didn't look like any work had been done in weeks.

Just a thought here, Mike

Possibly because all of the construction workers were ILLEGALS and have "split" due to the recent "Employer Verification Law? ! ! ! !

[Bill-]

Originally Posted by miamiman

I hope this project is scaled back or not constructed at all. People don't move to Phoenix for its urbanity. People move to Phoenix for the weather and the mountain views. It would clearly be a waste of money.

I see no need to put up a bunch of tall skyscrapers solely because Phoenix is the 5th most populous city in the country, or because smaller cities across the United States have tall skylines.

Why not let the market decide if people want to live and work in tall buildings in downtown Phoenix. If the condo's sell and the office space rents there's no sane reason not to pursue a denser/more vertical downtown.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

What makes you qualified to make that assumption?

While I agree a lot of people move to Phoenix to get away from urban cities like NYC and Chicago, I don't think it's for the mountains...that's certainly not why I live here. And the weather can be enjoyed no matter where you live in the city.

The thing is, there are plently of suburbs right? Plently of houses out in the desert...I think we can both agree with that. So for people who want that lifestyle, they can have it. But what about people, like myself, who would like to stay in Phoenix but want more of a urban life? Why can't we have an option as well?

Because those have been the well-known attractors to Phoenix for decades. If the skyline was the dominant attractor of new people to Phoenix then we'd be growing about as quickly as the city of Detroit.

The fact is that I think the NIMBYism in Phoenix is warranted. Residents have the right to express what they want in their backyards. If skyscrapers were so desired by residents the voice in favor of development would silence the dissenting voice. In Phoenix we all know that's not the case.

Developers need to stop forcing this kind of development on people who are not interested. There are much smarter ways of creating and fostering an active downtown area. Glassy, shiny skyscrapers will not bring people downtown. Downtown Miami is littered with high rise development. It is still one of the most dead downtowns at night.

The underlying fact here that people are consistently and conveniently ignoring is that the majority of Phoenix and Valley residents DO NOT work in Central Phoenix. Building office towers is not going to change the communiting patterns of millions of people. The majority of Houstonians and the majority of Angelenos do not work in the downtown areas of those cities despite the huge office towers. The last thing Phoenix needs is to construct office buildings that have a lot of unleased space.

People need to stop getting hot over high-rise buildings because they would look nice from different vantage points on the 51 or the 10. That is irresponsible planning. If there is a strong enough market for high-rise development, then I agree that this project should proceed.

However, I will always believe that in order to create an active downtown you need to start from the bottom to the top (literally) than work from the top down. We need to establish more reliable public transit, other than this light rail project that WILL prove to be a huge waste of money. We need downtown to be a 24/7 district. We need grocery stores. We need schools. You don't build buildings and then later discuss how you're going to put those basic services in place. . That's like building a house and then worrying about your sewer and water system.

[Magnum Mike]

Originally Posted by Bummer

Just a thought here, Mike

Possibly because all of the construction workers were ILLEGALS and have "split" due to the recent "Employer Verification Law? ! ! ! !

LOL... You might have a valid point there Bummer!

[vegaspilgrim]

I wish the best for Phoenix's downtown, I really do-- but I'm somewhat skeptical of how much can really be achieved-- even with City Scape and these other construction paragraphs. Two weekends ago I did a major walking and driving tour around downtown and the areas surrounding it (because I was bored and I'm interested in this kind of stuff). Here are some major problems I see and questions I have:

1. Where is the core part of downtown, exactly? The city of Phoenix defines the downtown planning area as 7th st to 7th ave, Lincoln St. to Marget T Hance Part. Personally, I think that's way, way too broad of an area, especially when you analzye the space in that area.

2. The whole eastern half of downtown is one giant "big box"-ville. Two big stadiums, a soon-to-be mega sized convention Center, the Collier Center, Herberger Center, Heritage Square, Mercado, and the Arizona Center. ASU's new stuff north of Van Buren can be added to the growing list of big box "stuff." Each of these projects, while important, is practically walled off from the rest of downtown. Mammoth sized parking garages fill in the remainder of space between these projects. I just don't see how this area can be retrofitted into a pedestrian friendly, urban environment-- unless if they blow the up the entire eastern half of downtown and start over from scratch.

2. The southwestern quadrant of downtown: another huge mess. Where to start... how about the 4th Avenue jail! Why the heck is there a MAJOR prison right in the heart of the downtown a major city? Is this still the wild west or something? Jefferson, Madison, and Jackson St west of Central Ave are scary streets to walk on. There's actually a sign on the streets surrounding the jail saying "No stopping at any time for any reason." The only business I'm aware of there is a coffee shop right across the street from the jail, for hipsters who get a kick out of that or something. SW part of downtown: HUGE turnoff. Go a block or two west of the jail and it's Phoenix's version of skid row. This proposed City Scape project, even though it sounds cool, gets a little too close to the bad area.

3. The western/northwest quadrant of downtown: Just a bunch of governmental buildings, starting at 1st ave and Washington and continuing west from there to the state Capitol. No reason for anyone to go there unless one works for the city/ county or has business to do there. 1st Ave, 2nd Ave/ civic mall, 3rd ave are deader than dead-- more parking garage-villes. Even with the light rail, I don't see how 1st Ave will be any different. Dodge Theater and Orpheum theater are the only two things of interest in this part of downtown, and those are two isolated venues, with dead space between them and Central.

4. The area east of Central, north of Van Buren, up to Roosevelt. This is probably one of the most up and coming areas of downtown, with a handful of businesses springing up here and there, and a few condo projects. Actually, I don't really consider this Downtown-- it's more like a neighborhood just north of downtown. So many vacant lots that until they are filled in, you simply are not going to get average people to just walk around. Maybe a few edgy urban hipsters and pioneering artists, but no normal people. My prediction for this area is that it will become more and more filled in, but it will never be an action packed truly urban area. My guess is it will come to resemble the 3x3 block area in Tempe east of Mill Ave and north of University Dr-- some stuff here and there, but no real center of energy-- and still slightly suburban-y.

5. The only area that I think has a potential to become truly revitalized, with pedestrian activity and storefronts being leased out to businesses is a tiny 3x3 block area, approximately bounded by 1st Ave, Van Buren, 2nd St, and Washington St. Even within this area, an entire square block (Van Buren, 2nd st, Monroe, 1st St) is taken up by a horrifically ugly parking garage, which would need to be bulldozed. Another one of these blocks is a giant parking garage, with a Mexican restaurant (El Matador?) on the ground level. Better than nothing, but parking garage villes, even with a ground level restaurant are not very inviting. Central between Washington (maybe from Jefferson if City Scape is built) and Van Buren has the most potential. Right now, there's also a one block area on the north side of Washington St between 1st st and 2nd st that has some cool stuff. If City Scape was done right, the south side of that block could be filled in with cool stuff too. The thing is, even if this central area of downtown Phoenix became revitalized, it would still be a tiny area-- and would pale in comparison even to downtown Tempe and old town Scottsdale.

So while I'd like to see downtown become a fun place some day... I don't really see where exactly it would happen.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

how about the 4th Avenue jail! Why the heck is there a MAJOR prison right in the heart of the downtown a major city? Is this still the wild west or something?

There is one in Chicago too. Its not very big, but its definitely a jail and definitely right downtown.

[joninaz]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

Like MagnumMike, Id also like to disagree with this comment. The John Hancock building in Chicago (1,100 ft) is home to many people and is the world's highest residential building as of right now. The Burj Dubai is set to pass it once people occupy it, and the Chicago Spire that is being built (2000 ft tall) is also residential as is the 1,200 ft tall Trump Tower in Chicago. Then there is the Q1 in Australia and...

I shouldn't have been absolute - there are some examples as pointed out. Still, it seems the trend in newer, Post WWII boom cities is a spreading of jobs across metro areas, not clustering everyone downtown. Many of Denver's top employers set up shop in the Tech center, not downtown. In San Fran, the top companies are all over the bay area. I can't think of a major LA public company based downtown - they are in the burbs/adjacent cities. In PHX you've got most of the major public companies spread about, again most being outside of the downtown big buildings with a few along central. Still others are in Tempe, Scottsdale and other outlying areas.

It's interesting that Dubai was mentioned as my company is looking to open a hub there. Maybe downtown Phoenix could adopt some of their economic incentive plans to attract new development? See Link

[Magnum Mike]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

2. The southwestern quadrant of downtown: another huge mess. Where to start... how about the 4th Avenue jail! Why the heck is there a MAJOR prison right in the heart of the downtown a major city?

I wondered about that too VP, but then I realized it was probably done for convenience, since there are court buildings within the vicinity of the jail. That building was built in 1982 and we've seen tremendous improvements in downtown Phoenix since then.

I do agree with you though on some of the assessment of downtown. But you have to remember that Phoenix is a relatively still a young city compared to Chicago, New York, LA and Seattle. Arizona did not join the union until February 14th, 1912. You also have to remember that Phoenix may not be very conducive to bring all that outdoor "fun" stuff or events that happen in other downtown areas, like Seattle, Chicago, New York or Boston. We all know we have hot summers here, so it might not make fiscal sense to build a lot of facilities that cater strictly to outdoor activities.

That's probably why we have strip malls and big malls scattered throughout the metro area, so it could be convenient for the folks who live in the "burbs". The cold weather in the winter for the east and midwest may also be a factor in limiting the outdoor activities there as well, I don't know enough about what "fun stuff" goes on during the winter in downtown Chicago, but it's probably more than what goes on here during the summer. Yes, we have the Chase Ballpark and the US Airways Arena, and not that many people want to walk a few blocks to go do some fun stuff downtown after a baseball game in July or August, unless they enclose the entire downtown area in glass and steel walls and put a huge airconditioning system powered by solar energy! That might be something to consider.. They did that somewhere, I forgot where, but the area wasn't as big as downtown Phoenix, so you'll never know, in about 50 years that concept may not be so far-fetched at all.

[Bill-]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

2. The southwestern quadrant of downtown: another huge mess. Where to start... how about the 4th Avenue jail! Why the heck is there a MAJOR prison right in the heart of the downtown a major city?

Typically downtown jails are built for proximity to court facilities. Chicago has a federal prison downtown.

BOP: MCC Chicago