New tallest building FINALLY coming to Phoenix! (Miami: neighborhood, wages)

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

The thing is, there are plently of suburbs right? Plently of houses out in the desert...I think we can both agree with that. So for people who want that lifestyle, they can have it. But what about people, like myself, who would like to stay in Phoenix but want more of a urban life? Why can't we have an option as well?

Agreed. I don't think most people who move to Phoenix do so for the urbanity, but once here they find they miss certain urban lifestyle characteristics more than they expected. A few become bitter naysayers, but some actually support forward-looking projects like those documented in your posts and photos. Some residents may want a suburban house while raising families but may long for a more urban option once the nest is empty. Likewise, second-generation Phoenicians who reach adulthood after growing up here may wish to spend a few years in an urban environment before settling in a suburban area. Others, including me, like the combination of natural and human-made attractions. That's the reason for genuine interest in projects like those discussed in this thread. With over 4 million people, the Phoenix Metro Area can and should support a variety of options.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

The only business I'm aware of there is a coffee shop right across the street from the jail, for hipsters who get a kick out of that or something.

That's the Royal Coffee Bar. There's also an excellent bakery next door called Sweet Pea. I agree that the location is an unlikely one, but it adds to their charms. There is some artsiness down that way, and Royal is usually part of First Fridays, along with a few nearby galleries.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Because those have been the well-known attractors to Phoenix for decades. If the skyline was the dominant attractor of new people to Phoenix then we'd be growing about as quickly as the city of Detroit.

Yes, and again, I'm not saying we need to stop building in the suburbs. I don't think that will ever be an issue. The openness of Phoenix is the big draw for new people here, but like I said, there are people who choose to live here or have to live here and they want other options. I guarantee that it won't affect John Doe who lives in Gilbert, he probably won't even know what is going on downtown...he doesn't care, and that's fine. There are people who care, and they should be catered to as well.

Originally Posted by miamiman

The fact is that I think the NIMBYism in Phoenix is warranted. Residents have the right to express what they want in their backyards. If skyscrapers were so desired by residents the voice in favor of development would silence the dissenting voice. In Phoenix we all know that's not the case.Developers need to stop forcing this kind of development on people who are not interested.

How involved have you been in any of the public meeting on downtown development? I'm assuming you haven't been at all, but if you have, correct me here. I've gone to many of the meetings, particularly the ones involving Cityscape, and I can tell you that the residents in favor DO outnumber the ones not in favor. One of the meeting that comes to mind had a vote for the project in excess of 140 people and something like 11 against.

Trust me, developers aren't forcing this on anybody. Do you really think developers want to build these things if they don't have buyers? It's not exactly a "build it and they will come mentality" but more so the opposite, where they usually have to sell a certain amount or have reservations for a certain amount of units before they will even build.

Originally Posted by miamiman

The underlying fact here that people are consistently and conveniently ignoring is that the majority of Phoenix and Valley residents DO NOT work in Central Phoenix. Building office towers is not going to change the communiting patterns of millions of people. The majority of Houstonians and the majority of Angelenos do not work in the downtown areas of those cities despite the huge office towers. The last thing Phoenix needs is to construct office buildings that have a lot of unleased space.

Have you looked at the vacancy rate for Class A office in downtown? Last I heard, it was the lowest of anywhere in the Phoenix area, something like 5%. Lease rates have gone up about 25% recently and space is filling up, there is obviously a demand. It's true the majority of people don't work downtown, but there is still a huge number that do and with more offices and companies moving downtown, even more will. There are a lot of people who would like to be able to walk to work, or take a bus or light rail but not have to sit on that bus for an hour or more.

Originally Posted by miamiman

However, I will always believe that in order to create an active downtown you need to start from the bottom to the top (literally) than work from the top down. We need to establish more reliable public transit, other than this light rail project that WILL prove to be a huge waste of money. We need downtown to be a 24/7 district. We need grocery stores. We need schools. You don't build buildings and then later discuss how you're going to put those basic services in place. . That's like building a house and then worrying about your sewer and water system.

Again, how familiar are you with what is going on downtown? For one, there is a grocery store planned in this project, so that should address one of your concerns. Aside from that, there are many other amenities going in...retail, restaurants, services, etc.
Light rail is a whole other issue, but I do support it.

Bottom line is, I live in the suburbs...very suburbs actually, all the way at 67th Ave and Happy Valley and while it's nice, I do feel isolated here. I hate the fact that even to grab something to eat, I have to get in the car. To drop off some dry cleaning, I have to get in the car. To go get some milk, I have to get in the car. You rarely see anyone on the streets out here and honestly it's pretty lonely and isolated.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Have you looked at the vacancy rate for Class A office in downtown? Last I heard, it was the lowest of anywhere in the Phoenix area, something like 5%. Lease rates have gone up about 25% recently and space is filling up, there is obviously a demand. It's true the majority of people don't work downtown, but there is still a huge number that do and with more offices and companies moving downtown, even more will. There are a lot of people who would like to be able to walk to work, or take a bus or light rail but not have to sit on that bus for an hour or more.

This article (broken link) just appeared in my RSS reader. It confirms that indeed vacancy rates are low now and that some tenants who would like to locate Downtown have to look elsewhere.

[HX_Guy]

I was about to post the article, I just read it myself. Some key points from the article...



Businesses, Phoenix await new high-rises

Andrew Johnson
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 14, 2007 05:17 PM
"Businesses and real-estate analysts are eagerly awaiting the completion of two high-rise projects in downtown Phoenix that are expected to help ease a chronic office-space shortage in one of the Valley's top business markets.

One Central Park East, which will be located at the northeast corner of Central Avenue and Van Buren Street, is estimated to cost $175 million and comes at a time when downtown Phoenix is being plagued by what brokers consider to be unusually low vacancy rates.

The market is so tight, in fact, that some businesses are being forced to seek space elsewhere or pay higher-than-average rents.

Consider: Downtown Phoenix south of McDowell Road saw an office vacancy rate of 6.95 percent in the third quarter, according to commercial brokerage CBRE data. By comparison, the vacancy rate was 11.19 percent in the entire central business district, which includes Midtown, 12.64 percent in the Camelback/Piestewa Peak submarket, and 16.31 percent in north Phoenix.


Conlin, managing partner of Chicago-based developer Mesirow Financial Real Estate Inc., said the One Central Park East's proximity to the future light-rail line would be a draw for firms. "

[uconn99]

In this day in age most people live and work in the suburbs. The day of the majority of people living in the suburbs and working in the city is over. This is not 1950 when the trend was for most people to work in the core of the central city. There's no need to slap up a bunch of shiny, tall skyscrapers if they're not needed.

I don't know if you have noticed, but most downtowns in this country are seeing a huge amount of downtown development in lofts and residential towers. All one needs to look is downtown Tempe, Scottsdale, San Diego, Denver ect..... All cities are doing this. Should Phoenix be out of the loop and miss an important opportunity to get people back into downtowns?

[joninaz]

Originally Posted by uconn99

I don't know if you have noticed, but most downtowns in this country are seeing a huge amount of downtown development in lofts and residential towers. All one needs to look is downtown Tempe, Scottsdale, San Diego, Denver ect..... All cities are doing this. Should Phoenix be out of the loop and miss an important opportunity to get people back into downtowns?

I'm not arguing here... just wondering if PHX is putting the cart before the horse. Downtown Denver, LA, San Diego, Seattle, etc were mostly business districts which turned into ghost towns at night. Big office buildings but the workers scattered at dusk. Denver reversed the trend when a small group of business owners started converting dead buildings into cool bars and eateries. First came the nightlife, then came lofts and cool eateries. The formerly boarded up areas are now the cool places to have an office or place to live. Meanwhile, the sprawling metro burb residents now head downtown for a night out.

San Diego was very similar. Big buildings but everyone bolted at night... despite it being one of the more fantastic settings in the world. They built a downtown mall that never really worked. They built great hotels that were nice for the convention crowd. It was the Gaslamp eateries and bars that kept the flame going and growing. The next wave has been condod/lofts, helped by a ballpark. LA has been the same. Monster downtown workforce that flees at 6. The housing developers have had to bite and scratch for every inch of space, but they are finally developing a good downtown scene. Even then, it was predicated by access to food and drink options.

Even in NY, the hip places to live are the former packing/wharehouse areas like Tribeca and SoHo.

The pattern, it seems, favors those places that attract nightlife first. PHX has inched that way, but where does it stand as a destination?

[azsundevil]

There are many good restaurants and nightlife in downtown Phx(not sure if it would fit in the "traditional" boundaries) I think the big issue is perception. Most people I meet have the perception that there is nothing to do downtown and the burbs have way more to offer. Granted, you don't have a walkable business district like most cities, things are spread out. They are there though. Matt's Big Breakfast, Chevuronts Wine Bar, Coronado Cafe, Barrio Grill, Fate, Lux, Lola, Trent Cinq, Portlands...I could go on and on. My experience has been that most people I have met that live on the fringes rather have me drive out there to go to PF Changs or Cheesecake Factory, which in their opinion is the best food in the metro area.

[Magnum Mike]

I think everyone involved in downtown development, from developers to real estate agents, have always had a very challenging job. The reason I say that is because the one thing we lack in the downtown area is a body of water. Let's look at other cities and why their downtown areas have done well - San Diego has Mission Bay, Seattle has Puget Sound, Portland has the Willamette River, Chicago has Lake Michigan, New York City has Hudson Bay, the Hudson and East Rivers, downtown San Francisco is surrounded by bodies of water, so is Miami and now look at what happened in Tempe when they created the Town Lake.

A body of water in downtown Phoenix? Hmmm... I don't know, that's why I said everybody who has a hand in creating a viable and livable downtown has a big challenge. I think that's one big reason why our downtown hasn't seen the revitalization other downtowns have seen.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by azsundevil

There are many good restaurants and nightlife in downtown Phx(not sure if it would fit in the "traditional" boundaries) I think the big issue is perception. Most people I meet have the perception that there is nothing to do downtown and the burbs have way more to offer. Granted, you don't have a walkable business district like most cities, things are spread out. They are there though. Matt's Big Breakfast, Chevuronts Wine Bar, Coronado Cafe, Barrio Grill, Fate, Lux, Lola, Trent Cinq, Portlands...I could go on and on. My experience has been that most people I have met that live on the fringes rather have me drive out there to go to PF Changs or Cheesecake Factory, which in their opinion is the best food in the metro area.

None of those places you mentioned are really downtown Phoenix. Some of them are in the up and coming neighborhood just north of downtown, which might even walkable from downtown. Some of those are restaurants in new urbanist projects along Central-- not downtown, but midtown Phoenix. Some of those are reconverted houses facing the street in Phoenix's original suburbs (Coronado Cafe- 7th st, Barrio Grill- 16th st, etc). They're all "Central Phoenix," but to call that downtown is misleading. Central Phoenix = downtown +midtown + historic suburbs. Downtown is downtown.