New tallest building FINALLY coming to Phoenix! (Tucson, Summit: apartment, rentals)

[_Charles_]

I think this is great. It is exactly what downtown Phoenix needs more of. I for one am glad to see it happening.

[HX_Guy]

Alright...let me give my input on all of this...

Steve-o - Yes, you are right, this project in NYC or Chicago probably wouldn't attract nearly any attention. But Phoenix isn't NYC or Chicago. Those places already have what is proposed here. Have they always? No...they had to start somewhere too and they have what, a 100+ year head start on Phoenix when it comes to high-rises and downtown life? This project is unique when it comes to downtown because of all the components it brings...the grocery, the bookstore, the retail, the restaurants. People complain that there is nothing to do downtown after a game...well, this will bring at least some activities and places.

Phoenix is anything but overcrowded. Phoenix has a density of 3,077.6 people per sq mi. Compare that to 66,940/sq mi of Manhattan, 15,834/sq mi of San Francisco, 12,604/sq mi of Chicago, and 8,567/sq mi of L.A.
We are not anywhere near those numbers.

Silverbear - I believe Phoenix has left the notion behind that one single project will turn downtown around. That is the major difference I see with this revival attempt compared to others. This CityScape project isn't the only one on the table...the ASU campus is rolling along, the convention center and hotel, a couple of high-rise residential, light rail and so on. These are things that will not only bring people downtown, but also have people living downtown. Arizona Center was basically a mall built downtown...but it had no residential component for people to actually live there and it was somewhat isolated. The thing is, one project at a time, and soon enough you'll have a mass of projects that play off each other. You can catch a game at Chase Field, stop by CityScape at a restaurant, then go catch a movie at the Arizona Center. Each project is starting to have a roll and gives you more options instead of just one thing.
Look at other cities...has NYC always had everything from the very beginning? I doubt it...but with 100+ years of project after project, it's now one big mass.

As for "unique" vs "suburban chains", I think both are needed. If I lived in one of the downtown condos, maybe I would want to go to a PF Changs once in a while and I definitely wouldn't want to drive to Peoria or Scottsdale to do that. I do think they need some unique restaurants and retailers as well, to get people from the suburbs to go there, but the chains aren't bad either.

As for why would someone go downtown when you can get a lot of the same stuff in the suburbs, it's all preference. Sure if you are just wanting to go grab a bite to eat and that's it, then the corner Applebees might be better...but I for one sometimes like to make a day of it. Walk around a bit on foot outside, pop in and out of some stores, do some people watching, grab something to eat.
Now all the stuff I said an be done at a suburb mall right? But to me, it's not the same. Yes Kierland Commons gives you an urban feel while "inside", but I hate turning the corner and seeing a sea of parking lots. I like walking from block to block, cars passing by, people walking by, sidewalk cafes and so on...an urban environment that the suburbs cannot give you.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Alright...let me give my input on all of this...

Steve-o - Yes, you are right, this project in NYC or Chicago probably wouldn't attract nearly any attention. But Phoenix isn't NYC or Chicago. Those places already have what is proposed here. Have they always? No...they had to start somewhere too and they have what, a 100+ year head start on Phoenix when it comes to high-rises and downtown life? This project is unique when it comes to downtown because of all the components it brings...the grocery, the bookstore, the retail, the restaurants. People complain that there is nothing to do downtown after a game...well, this will bring at least some activities and places.

Phoenix is anything but overcrowded. Phoenix has a density of 3,077.6 people per sq mi. Compare that to 66,940/sq mi of Manhattan, 15,834/sq mi of San Francisco, 12,604/sq mi of Chicago, and 8,567/sq mi of L.A.
We are not anywhere near those numbers.

Silverbear - I believe Phoenix has left the notion behind that one single project will turn downtown around. That is the major difference I see with this revival attempt compared to others. This CityScape project isn't the only one on the table...the ASU campus is rolling along, the convention center and hotel, a couple of high-rise residential, light rail and so on. These are things that will not only bring people downtown, but also have people living downtown. Arizona Center was basically a mall built downtown...but it had no residential component for people to actually live there and it was somewhat isolated. The thing is, one project at a time, and soon enough you'll have a mass of projects that play off each other. You can catch a game at Chase Field, stop by CityScape at a restaurant, then go catch a movie at the Arizona Center. Each project is starting to have a roll and gives you more options instead of just one thing.
Look at other cities...has NYC always had everything from the very beginning? I doubt it...but with 100+ years of project after project, it's now one big mass.

As for "unique" vs "suburban chains", I think both are needed. If I lived in one of the downtown condos, maybe I would want to go to a PF Changs once in a while and I definitely wouldn't want to drive to Peoria or Scottsdale to do that. I do think they need some unique restaurants and retailers as well, to get people from the suburbs to go there, but the chains aren't bad either.

As for why would someone go downtown when you can get a lot of the same stuff in the suburbs, it's all preference. Sure if you are just wanting to go grab a bite to eat and that's it, then the corner Applebees might be better...but I for one sometimes like to make a day of it. Walk around a bit on foot outside, pop in and out of some stores, do some people watching, grab something to eat.
Now all the stuff I said an be done at a suburb mall right? But to me, it's not the same. Yes Kierland Commons gives you an urban feel while "inside", but I hate turning the corner and seeing a sea of parking lots. I like walking from block to block, cars passing by, people walking by, sidewalk cafes and so on...an urban environment that the suburbs cannot give you.

A reasonable analysis, and I agree for the most part. I think Cityscape is a net positive, but I also understand some of the criticisms.

[Magnum Mike]

I saw a program recently on the History Channel about the Chrysler and the Empire State Buildings and it seems at that time developers were trying to outdo the others by building the tallest skyscraper. I'd like to see that happen here with the 44 story Cityscape tower, I want to see other developers build taller, so a little competition might be good and it might not be long before we see another developer building a 60-story tower. Building upward is certainly better than building outward. There are plans for taller buildings and I'm sure you've heard about them HX_Guy, one such project is the 50-story Toll Brothers towers that are being planned for the southeast corner of Central and Thomas.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by Magnum Mike

I saw a program recently on the History Channel about the Chrysler and the Empire State Buildings and it seems at that time developers were trying to outdo the others by building the tallest skyscraper. I'd like to see that happen here with the 44 story Cityscape tower, I want to see other developers build taller, so a little competition might be good and it might not be long before we see another developer building a 60-story tower. Building upward is certainly better than building outward. There are plans for taller buildings and I'm sure you've heard about them HX_Guy, one such project is the 50-story Toll Brothers towers that are being planned for the southeast corner of Central and Thomas.

Youre correct, better up than out.

[HX_Guy]

I think that one isn't really anything concrete. There are no permits being applied for or anything to signify any activity.

The other "tall" development to watch right now is the SW Development at Central and Willetta, just south of McDowell. There is a proposal, permit request, and FAA variance under review for two 45 story 500' tall condos/retail. It's a bit far north for my taste, I would rather see the downtown core get more dense...but it's not a bad location geographically wise right between downtown and mid-town, directly next to the library and a CVS pharmacy plus right on the light rail. It would definitely look interesting practically right above the deck park tunnel on the I-10, quite a site as your driving down the I-10.

[irwin]

High rise developments are fine in Phoenix. The place definitely needs them.

But, the problem I think is that many people think in black or white for development. You either have a one story ranch in the burbs or you live in a 40+ story high rise. There are plenty of happy mediums that Phoenix could employ that would increase density.

For example, look around New York, especially off the main streets and you will see plenty of medium story walk ups, town homes, etc; San Francisco - same thing. In and around downtown Phoenix could build a lot of these types of developments at a lot lower cost and in a MUCH shorter period of time. You could also throw in an extra floor and add commercial space at the bottom. Other Sun Belt cities that are miles ahead of Phoenix in terms of development are doing the same (Midtown in Houston, Uptown in Dallas, Midtown & Buckhead in Atlanta, etc).

Anyway, I guess my point is that building big project towers is fine. But just building towers, surrounded by a bunch of empty lots or single family ranch homes doesn't make a place a urban or (especially) walkable. It simply allows people to live in the sky and continue to drive everywhere.

[vegaspilgrim]

Irwin, you are right on the money! The number of skyscrapers is not really that important. Those midrise buildings are what we crucially lack!

[HX_Guy]

There are actually quite a few infill projects going on as well which are on the smaller scale, around 3-4 stories or 6-8 like Portland Place. All along Portland St from 9th St to 7th Ave there are projects going up right now, I can think of 6 right off the top of my head.

The problem why you don't see a lot of these right in the core is because of the zoning in downtown. A while back, some genius decided to zone everything in downtown for high-rises. The land is worth more then the buildings (well that's always the case, but now it's out of control) and it simply doesn't pencil out for developers to build something small. The land is so pricey that they need to build something with a lot of units to to make some money.

[Valley Native]

HX Guy, thank you for posting this. I have been trying to keep up with the planned upward development of downtown Phoenix, as well as the existing construction projects which are under way.

I'm hoping that the entire CityScape project goes through as planned, and isn't delayed by cost overruns, material shortages, or f.a.r.t.s ... which is an acronym I came up with (standing for fanatically against relatively tall structures).

Speaking of which: do you know what's going on with the planned 39 story W Hotel across the street from United Airways Center? It was supposed to begin construction last year, but is delayed (as usual) by a lawsuit started by some Chinese protectionist group. Is that hotel ever going to be built, or will it be yet another vision down the drain because of these pathetic protestors?!