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Old 09-06-2011, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Cave Creek, AZ USA
1,715 posts, read 3,789,559 times
Reputation: 935

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Pay the fine and you can enjoy your vacation. The city needs the money.
I don't pay fines that are requested, only those that come with threat of court or MVD action. You're welcome to make donations to any city you think needs your money. They have to work for my money.

 
Old 09-06-2011, 07:58 PM
 
5 posts, read 12,153 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
What's "unjust" here? It's technology. If you are guilty then you can pay or hide for a few months and set a fine example of taking responsibility for your actions for your children. "Mommy is hiding from the bad policeman." In a few years your kids will be driving and your hypocrisy in expecting them to obey traffic laws will not go unnoticed by them. This is a teaching moment. Don't make it the wrong lesson.
Ponderosa: I am DEFINITELY concerned about teaching my children the right lessons here. 1) I would never tell them that we can't answer the door because "if we do, mommy might get a ticket". They simply are not allowed to open the door or talk to people they don't know *because it is inherently dangerous* in our current society. 2) It is also my duty to teach my children to stand up for themselves and to demand the proper treatment under our justice system.

Finally, *technology* is NOT infallible. There are several instances where HUGE batches of these traffic tickets were refunded and canceled because the cameras and/or lights were proven to be mis-calibrated (or yellow lights purposely shortenend to increase revenue).

Because I have children, I am a conscientious, SAFE driver. The ticket is unjust, and I will not just sit by and fork over my money and my right to justice....neither of those actions would teach my children to be true freedom-loving Americans.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
17,596 posts, read 20,934,868 times
Reputation: 9231
Quote:
Originally Posted by azphotoradarsucks View Post
Ponderosa: I am DEFINITELY concerned about teaching my children the right lessons here. 1) I would never tell them that we can't answer the door because "if we do, mommy might get a ticket". They simply are not allowed to open the door or talk to people they don't know *because it is inherently dangerous* in our current society. 2) It is also my duty to teach my children to stand up for themselves and to demand the proper treatment under our justice system.

Finally, *technology* is NOT infallible. There are several instances where HUGE batches of these traffic tickets were refunded and canceled because the cameras and/or lights were proven to be mis-calibrated (or yellow lights purposely shortenend to increase revenue).

Because I have children, I am a conscientious, SAFE driver. The ticket is unjust, and I will not just sit by and fork over my money and my right to justice....neither of those actions would teach my children to be true freedom-loving Americans.
If you feel the ticket is "unjust" then the proper course is to argue your case in court, not hide from the process server. The smartest action, though, may be to simply take the online course and keep the ticket off your record. Sometimes things in life are not just and there is little we can do about it but accept it and move on.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Cave Creek, AZ USA
1,715 posts, read 3,789,559 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
If you feel the ticket is "unjust" then the proper course is to argue your case in court, not hide from the process server.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dodging a process server. They want my money, they need to work for it and comply with the law too. That said, I haven't changed a single thing I do since my wife's ticket came in the mail. I never open my door for unexpected visitors and I keep my garage doors closed all the time. That isn't a new practice. I don't like to be bothered by strangers anywhere and so my habits just make it unlikely a process server will cross my path.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 10:29 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
17,596 posts, read 20,934,868 times
Reputation: 9231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lee View Post
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dodging a process server. They want my money, they need to work for it and comply with the law too. That said, I haven't changed a single thing I do since my wife's ticket came in the mail. I never open my door for unexpected visitors and I keep my garage doors closed all the time. That isn't a new practice. I don't like to be bothered by strangers anywhere and so my habits just make it unlikely a process server will cross my path.
Yeah but you just want to get out of paying a ticket. It is not your goal, as the OP put it " to teach my children to stand up for themselves and to demand the proper treatment under our justice system." If she thinks she should be served in person, then answer the door and accept the summons and then deal with it. Hiding is hardly a method of "standing up". It's just my opinion and I appreciate that not everyone is going to agree - including the OP.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 11:15 PM
 
26 posts, read 22,808 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
The way I look at is, I broke the law, and I need to be responsible for my actions. A fine is an appropriate way. It's much better than jail time.

The traffic signs were there to make me aware of the speed limit. In one I ignored it, and the other I didn't see it. But I still broke the law, and am willing to pay my fine.

It's difficult to not see the flash. I certainly saw it.

It did have the effect of making me slow down. As I said in my previous post, I am much more careful in observing the speed limits since I got those tickets.

Naturally the fines go into the city/county coffers, and perhaps it helps to pay for the cameras and police officers.

A question for the Captain please. Would your behavior have changed by simply receiving the ticket, or was the actual monetary sanction what made you change your behavior? I for one slow down whenever I see the popo. How say you?
 
Old 09-06-2011, 11:27 PM
 
5 posts, read 12,153 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Yeah but you just want to get out of paying a ticket. It is not your goal, as the OP put it " to teach my children to stand up for themselves and to demand the proper treatment under our justice system." If she thinks she should be served in person, then answer the door and accept the summons and then deal with it. Hiding is hardly a method of "standing up". It's just my opinion and I appreciate that not everyone is going to agree - including the OP.
Actually, Ponderosa, too often, the way the system is set up, you can't argue with those cameras, no matter how poorly they are maintained, calibrated, and monitored for accuracy. Read up on it. Case after case proves it. Chances are, if you appear in court, they will find you guilty whether you are or not, because they trust the cameras implicitly. This does NOT qualify as justice. Truth is, there are judges out there that just don't care. I don't think anyone here would have a problem being "served in person and just deal(ing) with it" if the courts actually would require evidence that the camera was functioning properly and accurately, and that there were no other "schemes" involved, like shortening the yellow-light time to increase revenue or snapping a photo of one person's car while recording the actual speed of the car next to it. If avoiding the process server is the only way to avoid UNJUST conviction of a crime one did not commit, it is 100% valid.

We have a RESPONSIBILITY to hold our government accountable for the way they go about handing out "justice". If we don't, we are sentencing our children to a life without the freedoms we hold so dear in this country. Anyone who thinks the cameras aren't part of the slippery slope toward losing our liberties is, well, naive.
 
Old 09-06-2011, 11:35 PM
 
5 posts, read 12,153 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
If you feel the ticket is "unjust" then the proper course is to argue your case in court, not hide from the process server. The smartest action, though, may be to simply take the online course and keep the ticket off your record. Sometimes things in life are not just and there is little we can do about it but accept it and move on.
I agree that "life is not always fair", if that is what you're trying to say. I am cool with that. I wouldn't even WANT life to be completely fair. We wouldn't learn and grow. However, injustices in the workplace, family relationships, friendships, etc, etc, are completely different that injustices in our court system. The whole reason we have the freedoms we have today in this country is that our Founding Fathers refused to "accept it and move on". I'm sure glad they didn't just roll over and accept injustice. One reason corruption is so rampant in our nation's justice system is that people just "let it go". Sorry, can't do that.
 
Old 09-07-2011, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Two years in Raleigh, NC
6,120 posts, read 5,873,171 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Lee View Post
I never open my door for unexpected visitors and I keep my garage doors closed all the time. That isn't a new practice. I don't like to be bothered by strangers anywhere and so my habits just make it unlikely a process server will cross my path.
Boy, I sure wanna be this guys neighbor. Sadly, this is a perfect example of why so many people who move to the valley say it's unfriendly.
 
Old 09-07-2011, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Two years in Raleigh, NC
6,120 posts, read 5,873,171 times
Reputation: 7732
Quote:
Originally Posted by azphotoradarsucks View Post
Actually, Ponderosa, too often, the way the system is set up, you can't argue with those cameras, no matter how poorly they are maintained, calibrated, and monitored for accuracy. Read up on it. Case after case proves it. Chances are, if you appear in court, they will find you guilty whether you are or not, because they trust the cameras implicitly. This does NOT qualify as justice. Truth is, there are judges out there that just don't care. I don't think anyone here would have a problem being "served in person and just deal(ing) with it" if the courts actually would require evidence that the camera was functioning properly and accurately, and that there were no other "schemes" involved, like shortening the yellow-light time to increase revenue or snapping a photo of one person's car while recording the actual speed of the car next to it. If avoiding the process server is the only way to avoid UNJUST conviction of a crime one did not commit, it is 100% valid.

We have a RESPONSIBILITY to hold our government accountable for the way they go about handing out "justice". If we don't, we are sentencing our children to a life without the freedoms we hold so dear in this country. Anyone who thinks the cameras aren't part of the slippery slope toward losing our liberties is, well, naive.
Just trying to avoid the process server is NOT the way to fight these laws. And certainly NOT what our founding fathers intended.

Want to fight and change the system? Get involved with one if the local political action committees that are actually DOING something. Get involved and write some letters to our legislatures and city council members. Get involved in the campaign election for whoever is running for office that has beliefs that conform to yours. Get involved and get petitions signed by other citizens that agree with your opinions. THAT'S our system at work - hiding behind doors isn't going to change anything.
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