Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I tend to agree, though I'm not sure brutality is the word for it - more like an incompetent overreaction.
This is an example of an officer trying to show how much authority he has in front of a group of people. I think he was trying to make an example of this guy and overstepped his bounds. The witness reports are quite debatable being that this was a crowded store and what was said and wasn't said probably will be interpreted differently among different people. It seems like the officer acted too fast and probably could have used a better technique to subdue him. In the end the guy will get quite a bit of money that will most likely cost the taxpayers.
Obviously she's alive and well making "expert" posts here on City-Data . . . the only way any of us would be able to "hang the cops" without being there during this Black Friday Fiasco.
What's wrong with giving the cops the benefit of the doubt and "innocent until proven guilty?"
Before one elects to resist arrest, they should remember these two things:
You will be taken to the ground on the spot. The arresting officer does not have to, and will not, lead you to soft ground before taking you down.
Resisting arrest is a Class 6 Felony, and a felon loses certain rights:
The right to vote, until restored
One "may" lose the right to hold public office, or if one is held, "may" be removed from that office.
One may not be able to get a visa to travel to some countries
The right to privacy is lost because the conviction record will
always be on public records
Any security clearance will be lost. If your job requires a security clearance, the job is lost
If your job requires a license, such as a Realtor, and possibly a contractor, you will probably lose that license. Many licensing and permit statutes authorize an agency to suspend or revoke a license or permit based on conviction of a felony
An attorney will be disbarred in most jurisdictions
Many companies will not hire a felon.
Cannot serve on a jury
Not eligible for welfare or federally funded housing
A felon cannot legally carry a weapon
Good list!
The problem here is that in a sudden high stress situation people's "Fight or Flight" instinct kicks in. This is why cops are supposed to identify themselves before proceeding to an arrest.
But there is no way you can predict this even in yourself because subtle situational differences can influence it. In this case, the Grandfather had the additional thought, already at the front of his brain, to protect the child and thus was already in a fight mode. So I can see why he'd be resisting arrest.
I didn't watch the video, was the cop obviously a cop? Did he identify himself as a police officer? Is he allowed too do so when working as security? Was he properly trained to identify shoplifters? Was the employee who reported it? Did he approach the man from the rear and take him by surprise, kicking in the man's fight instinct even more?
I'm asking as I was arrested once and fought it due to it's unexpectedness. Walking down the street, turned corner and bumped into a group of cops dressed in riot gear who I didn't even see or recognize as cops until they had subdued me. They never identified themselves that I heard, and they were on edge already thinking they were being attacked from behind. Everyone over reacted (including myself,) in the situation, but luckily they were understanding once things cooled down.
On the same token, I have a few years of martial arts training. I once had a friend unexpectedly mock attacked me. I had him subdued and on the ground before I even thought of it. I was attacked, and reacted exactly as I had been trained to do so.
There is too much grey area in this whole situation, hopefully there is enough video and witness evidence to sort things out and punish the proper parties. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle and both sides over reacted.
But, if you're grabbed unexpectedly, don't know who or what maybe grabbing, what do you do? Especially if you're already concerned about protecting a child?
The problem here is that in a sudden high stress situation people's "Fight or Flight" instinct kicks in. This is why cops are supposed to identify themselves before proceeding to an arrest.
But there is no way you can predict this even in yourself because subtle situational differences can influence it. In this case, the Grandfather had the additional thought, already at the front of his brain, to protect the child and thus was already in a fight mode. So I can see why he'd be resisting arrest.
I didn't watch the video, was the cop obviously a cop? Did he identify himself as a police officer? Is he allowed too do so when working as security? Was he properly trained to identify shoplifters? Was the employee who reported it? Did he approach the man from the rear and take him by surprise, kicking in the man's fight instinct even more?
I'm asking as I was arrested once and fought it due to it's unexpectedness. Walking down the street, turned corner and bumped into a group of cops dressed in riot gear who I didn't even see or recognize as cops until they had subdued me. They never identified themselves that I heard, and they were on edge already thinking they were being attacked from behind. Everyone over reacted (including myself,) in the situation, but luckily they were understanding once things cooled down.
On the same token, I have a few years of martial arts training. I once had a friend unexpectedly mock attacked me. I had him subdued and on the ground before I even thought of it. I was attacked, and reacted exactly as I had been trained to do so.
There is too much grey area in this whole situation, hopefully there is enough video and witness evidence to sort things out and punish the proper parties. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle and both sides over reacted.
But, if you're grabbed unexpectedly, don't know who or what maybe grabbing, what do you do? Especially if you're already concerned about protecting a child?
The video only shows from when the man was on the ground. It does not show what actually happened to cause the man to get taken to the ground.
The cop was in uniform and they are allowed to be in uniform when they work off duty for a private company. We hire Sheriff Deputies as private patrol at Val Vista Lakes, and they are always in uniform.
Nothing has been made public about the training of the store employee who spotted the man. However, the man did conceal the videos. While in the hospital the man stated that he concealed them to keep people from grabbing them.
According to the police report, the store employee took the man by the hand to a police officer. The officer, on page 4 of the report, said he told the man he was under arrest and to put his hands behind his back. So the man was not taken by surprise.
The man resisted and pulled his arm back. The officer said he managed to get the cuffs on one arm and the man pulled away. He estimates the scuffle took them about 30 feet from the starting point. He kept telling the man to stop resisting, but he continued until he took him down.
Some people are saying that other officers are lying for the arresting officer. However, there are no officer statements in that report that refer to what took place because the other officers were not there. They were responders. One of the responders took an audio statement from the arresting officer. What he writes in the report is only what the arresting officer told him.
One witness said he observed the officer attempting to arrest a shoplifter in the main isle. He said the customer was resisting the arrest and the officer had to take him to the floor to hand cuff him.
Another witness said he observed a man trying to steal a video game. They escorted the man to an officer and stepped away. The next thing this witness knew is the man was on the ground bleeding.
Another witness said he observed the customer on the ground refusing to respond to the officer. The customer continue to refuse and struggled to get out while being hand cuffed.
Another witness said he observed the officer place one hand cuff on the man, but the man continued to attempt to get away. The man did not stop or listen to the officer. He said the officer had to take action and take the man down.
Note that threeof those witnessessaid they saw the may trying to get away while being handcuffed.
Some seem to be placing to much emphasis on shoplifting a video game being a minor offense which doesn't justify being taken to the ground.
I agree. However......
1. The man was NOT taken to the ground for shoplifting. He was taken to the ground for resisting arrest; a Class 6 Felony. Also, by swinging his arms around with hand cuffs on one arm he presented a very real danger of injury to the officer and to innocent bystanders. He could also be charged with assault on a police officer by swinging the arm with the cuffs. That could be considered Aggravated Assault which carries a 5-15 year prison sentence (for a first offense).
2. While no one will know what was in the mans mind, the law does say that "concealment" constitutes shop lifting; and as we all know, ignorance of the law is not a defense. And whether or not the law is considered fair, it is the current law. Had the man not resisted, he may have been released soon after describing the situation and environment.
3. Shoplifting property valued at less than one thousand dollars is a Class 1 Misdemeanor. It is considered a serious crime with penalties of up to 6 months in jail, and possibly a fine.
In addition, a person who commits shoplifting and who has previously committed or been convicted within the past five years of two or more offenses involving burglary, shoplifting, robbery or theft or who in the course of shoplifting entered the mercantile establishment with an artifice, instrument, container, device or other article that was intended to facilitate shoplifting, is guilty of a class 4 felony.
The video only shows from when the man was on the ground. It does not show what actually happened to cause the man to get taken to the ground.
The cop was in uniform and they are allowed to be in uniform when they work off duty for a private company. We hire Sheriff Deputies as private patrol at Val Vista Lakes, and they are always in uniform.
Nothing has been made public about the training of the store employee who spotted the man. However, the man did conceal the videos. While in the hospital the man stated that he concealed them to keep people from grabbing them.
According to the police report, the store employee took the man by the hand to a police officer. The officer, on page 4 of the report, said he told the man he was under arrest and to put his hands behind his back. So the man was not taken by surprise.
The man resisted and pulled his arm back. The officer said he managed to get the cuffs on one arm and the man pulled away. He estimates the scuffle took them about 30 feet from the starting point. He kept telling the man to stop resisting, but he continued until he took him down.
Some people are saying that other officers are lying for the arresting officer. However, there are no officer statements in that report that refer to what took place because the other officers were not there. They were responders. One of the responders took an audio statement from the arresting officer. What he writes in the report is only what the arresting officer told him.
Note that threeof those witnessessaid they saw the may trying to get away while being handcuffed.
Some seem to be placing to much emphasis on shoplifting a video game being a minor offense which doesn't justify being taken to the ground.
I agree. However......
1. The man was NOT taken to the ground for shoplifting. He was taken to the ground for resisting arrest; a Class 6 Felony. Also, by swinging his arms around with hand cuffs on one arm he presented a very real danger of injury to the officer and to innocent bystanders. He could also be charged with assault on a police officer by swinging the arm with the cuffs. That could be considered Aggravated Assault which carries a 5-15 year prison sentence (for a first offense).
2. While no one will know what was in the mans mind, the law does say that "concealment" constitutes shop lifting; and as we all know, ignorance of the law is not a defense. And whether or not the law is considered fair, it is the current law. Had the man not resisted, he may have been released soon after describing the situation and environment.
3. Shoplifting property valued at less than one thousand dollars is a Class 1 Misdemeanor. It is considered a serious crime with penalties of up to 6 months in jail, and possibly a fine.
In addition, a person who commits shoplifting and who has previously committed or been convicted within the past five years of two or more offenses involving burglary, shoplifting, robbery or theft or who in the course of shoplifting entered the mercantile establishment with an artifice, instrument, container, device or other article that was intended to facilitate shoplifting, is guilty of a class 4 felony.
Never believe anything you read in a police report. Cops see things through their eyes which is a charitable way of saying they lie. I take it you have never been falsely arrested or accused by the police - or even fairly. It gives one a whole new perspective on them.
There was at least one person on the video of the incident who verbally stated the man did not resist arrest and was going along with the officer so there are conflicting reports.Therefore, no one can state with 100% certainty what happened. Everything is based on second hand information and witness reports. None of us can know for certain which witness testimony the police officer chose to include in their report. There may have been witnesses who denied the person who resisted arrest yet their testimony wasn't selected by the police officer.
Furthermore, to say that ignorance of the law is not a defense is not accurate because law enforcement does account for intent when deciding which action to pursue. Police officers are given authority to decide on coarse of action and are not required to arrest someone simply because the man tucked in a DVD under his clothing. The officer in this case chose to believe the man intended to steal the item and arrested him; another officer in that same situation may have felt differently and chosen a different coarse of action.
In addition, CNN iReporter DCHADD witnessed the event and denied the man resisted arrest.
Never believe anything you read in a police report. Cops see things through their eyes which is a charitable way of saying they lie. I take it you have never been falsely arrested or accused by the police - or even fairly. It gives one a whole new perspective on them.
I cannot disagree more, Pond. You're painting an entire profession with a very broad, very jaundiced brush. It's simply unfair to make statements like this. Is everyone in any group a carbon copy of the the rest? No, of course not. There are bad cops and good cops, honest cops and dishonest cops. Jerks and wonderful people can be found in every profession.
And, yes, I grew up in a rough area of southeast Los Angeles, not a "tony" suburb. So I've seen my share of police activity.
Let's wait until the investigation is complete.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
