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Old 11-29-2011, 05:29 AM
 
Location: Gilbert - Val Vista Lakes
6,066 posts, read 7,720,581 times
Reputation: 3653
In any type of altercation such as this, eye witnesses are all going to see different segments of the scuffle. It is unlikely that any one person will see the entire altercation from start to finish.

And even if one sees it from the beginning, s/he will remember only certain parts of the altercation; those which stand out more vividly in their mind. That's why getting as many eye witnesses as possible is necessary. In the report there was an officer getting written witness reports.

The one man who was on a video announcing police brutality probably only saw the part where the man was taken to the ground. Had he seen the man swinging his loose arm with hand cuffs on it, or had he been in close proximity of that swinging "weapon" his story may have been quite different.

Notice that there are no cell phone videos of the initial scuffle with the man that would have shown him resisting. Not many people saw that, or didn't have time to take their cell phones out. Once the man was on the ground, people gathered around and that is all they saw.

In the police report they mention witnesses who saw the man resisting the officer while yelling and flailing his arms around. The officer had reported that he had one cuff on the man and he broke that arm free.

One witness reported seeing the man kicking.

The police report states that the witness reports are all on separate written forms. One officer taking reports ran out of forms and had one witness record an audio report.

Here is the Police Report

Someone asked why the arresting officer didn't get witness statements. He states in his report that after the medics arrived and transported the man, that was the end of his involvement. He was off duty, so the on-duty officers, under supervision, would have taken over the investigation to get witness statements; and apparently they did.

Another point is that after this altercation, he would probably not be the best person to gather witness statements due to his heightened state of mind and adrenaline.

Before one elects to resist arrest, they should remember these two things:
  1. You will be taken to the ground on the spot. The arresting officer does not have to, and will not, lead you to soft ground before taking you down.
  2. Resisting arrest is a Class 6 Felony, and a felon loses certain rights:
    • The right to vote, until restored
    • One "may" lose the right to hold public office, or if one is held, "may" be removed from that office.
    • One may not be able to get a visa to travel to some countries
    • The right to privacy is lost because the conviction record will
      always be on public records
    • Any security clearance will be lost. If your job requires a security clearance, the job is lost
    • If your job requires a license, such as a Realtor, and possibly a contractor, you will probably lose that license. Many licensing and permit statutes authorize an agency to suspend or revoke a license or permit based on conviction of a felony
    • An attorney will be disbarred in most jurisdictions
    • Many companies will not hire a felon.
    • Cannot serve on a jury
    • Not eligible for welfare or federally funded housing
    • A felon cannot legally carry a weapon
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:27 AM
 
233 posts, read 174,252 times
Reputation: 247
Great post Captain Bill....where is the proof cops will cover for other cops or lie? Do you have any proof of this. I believe the investigation will stand behind the officer and the use of force will be justified under Graham vs Connor..what is reasonable? In this case a an adult male resisted arrest and instead of a tazer being deployed or pepper spray, the officer used a reasonable take down. The old man is lucky he didnt go outside the store because he would have been taken to the concrete or asphalt pavement. And we does security have to wait until he leaves the store, so if he flees then a foot pursuit develops which is even worse. He is running across a crowded parking lot jepoardising the safety of even more shoppers and responding officers who could possibly hit by a car. I am glad he got contacted in the store and he got caught being a thief.

Enjoy Xmas in tent city grandpa,,hope your Black Friday shopping and video game was worth it. Grandpa could also goto state prison for the Class 6 felony for resisting.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:26 PM
 
1,229 posts, read 1,859,709 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxrider View Post
.where is the proof cops will cover for other cops or lie? Do you have any proof of this.
There are hundreds of documented cases of this happening. Read any biographical & historical account of officers in their careers and this is a reoccurring theme. The proof is overwhelming. Ever study Frank Serpico and the NYPD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxrider View Post
The old man is lucky he didnt go outside the store because he would have been taken to the concrete or asphalt pavement.
The floor in WalMart is made of concrete. Plus, he is not an "old man".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxrider View Post
Enjoy Xmas in tent city grandpa,,hope your Black Friday shopping and video game was worth it. Grandpa could also goto state prison for the Class 6 felony for resisting.
I am confident that Buckeye PD will get sued and have to pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions. The subject will get no such jail sentence.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
15,858 posts, read 18,616,037 times
Reputation: 8209
Quote:
Originally Posted by DellNec View Post
There are hundreds of documented cases of this happening. Read any biographical & historical account of officers in their careers and this is a reoccurring theme. The proof is overwhelming. Ever study Frank Serpico and the NYPD?



The floor in WalMart is made of concrete. Plus, he is not an "old man".



I am confident that Buckeye PD will get sued and have to pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions. The subject will get no such jail sentence.
Charges against the victim will be dropped. Buckeye PD (and Walmart) will end up paying for this outrageous act of police brutality, but it will not be hundreds of thousands. My guess is a settlement of maybe 50K.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:44 PM
 
3,220 posts, read 2,972,418 times
Reputation: 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DellNec View Post
What I found interesting in the PO Report is that it is LACKING any witness/bystander information. The officer was either SLOPPY or he is purposely avoiding getting witness testimony because it would contradict his statement. IF what the officer says is true, that the subject resisted arrest, then the officer should have gotten 3-5 witnesses to back his statement. Yet the report is completely devoid of any witness testimony. Shoot, there were like 50 people standing there, why couldn't he get at least 5 statements????

Which leads me to believe:

A - The officer is sloppy and did not do a thorough investigation. Which then leads me to question where was his Watch Commander/Supervisor? They should have stepped in and gotten witness statements to collaborate his statement of resisting arrest.

B - The subject did not resist arrest as noted in the report and therefore the officer did not get witness statements because he feared they would contradict his statement.


EVERY officer out there has one time or another in their career "stretched" the truth and claimed "suspicious activity" or "resisted arrest", when the subject never really did any of those things. Police do it ALL THE TIME in order to get an arrest or to cover their a**. If you think they don't, then you are living in a fantasy world. Any cop, off the record of course, will admit to doing this one time or another in their career.

Is this what happened here? It's hard to say for sure but so far I am leaning towards that the officer overacted and did use excessive force and poor judgment. The blow to the head this guy received could have killed him. When conducting a "leg sweep" on a concrete floor, it is emphasized in PO training that extreme caution must be used to make sure the suspect/offender does not land on his head. You can't just leg sweep someone and then let them fall on their head. It is a maneuver that must be used cautiously.

There was a PO in a different state that used a stun gun while the suspect was perched over a 3-story wall, the suspect fell to his death. That officer was fired and was charged with involuntary manslaughter and found guilty.
The DPS investigation will provide answers to the relevant questions. As others have pointed out, the incident report references witness statements in separate documents, so the initial report is not lacking witness information.

Let's keep the hyperbole to a minumum, please. I'm always wary of arguments that include "ALL THE TIME" sorts of statements, as it really stretches credibilty.

And we're discussing an incident in Buckeye AZ, not law enforcement in general, or incidents in other parts of the country.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:50 PM
 
3,220 posts, read 2,972,418 times
Reputation: 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
Charges against the victim will be dropped. Buckeye PD (and Walmart) will end up paying for this outrageous act of police brutality, but it will not be hundreds of thousands. My guess is a settlement of maybe 50K.
I tend to agree, though I'm not sure brutality is the word for it - more like an incompetent overreaction.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:57 PM
 
8,848 posts, read 8,947,562 times
Reputation: 6014
I'm skeptical of that police report. A police officer can say anything and manipulate it in a way to exonerate him. If the man was truly resisting arrest, why didn't more people come forth in a more public way to the media that was present at the time. I just find it odd that the only witnesses who supposedly saw the man resist arrest are in the police report yet no one publicly came forth.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
15,858 posts, read 18,616,037 times
Reputation: 8209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimballette View Post
I tend to agree, though I'm not sure brutality is the word for it - more like an incompetent overreaction.
Yes, I agree. A bit of hyperbole on my part, there.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:25 PM
 
8,848 posts, read 8,947,562 times
Reputation: 6014
I read the entire police report and one witness account stood out to me. This witness claimed he witnessed the entire incident from start to finish and based on the details he provided, I believe him. He claimed the 8 year old boy initially had 3 copies of the video game and two older boys with tattoos on their face snatched the games from him as a crowd stormed the video game display. The grandfather then reacted to that and took one of the games and tucked it under his shirt and moved he and his grandson away from that area toward the area in front of the McDonalds. A witness then reported a Walmart employee then notified police and claimed a person was shoplifting the game. The witness states he did not think the man was attempting to steal the object and had tucked it to protect it from the other shoppers who were in a frenzy to acquire the game as was proven when they snatched the games from the child.

The witness then stated the police officer immediately arrested him and put one handcuff on him. He didn't talk or question the victim or get his side of the story. He immediately just threw on handcuffs and claimed he was under arrest for shoplifting. The officer then claims he used a leg kick and a take down to safely subdue the "subject"/victim. Based on this account, it does appear as if the police officer showed poor judgement and excessive use of force. Even if the man technically resisted arrest, the man's reaction seems understandable given that a police officer arrives out of nowhere and suddenly slaps on a handcuff without properly informing the man of the situation.

Isn't it a police officer's duty to use judgement and evaluate the context of the situation or obtain the victim's story; a police officer can certainly do that without allowing the person to flee meaning he can still restrain the man while obtaining his account of the event and then based on that decide what to do. He didn't give the victim any benefit of the doubt nor did he obtain his account and simply slapped on a handcuff and attempted to arrest him. Imagine if you were the victim and you concealed a video game so that you can acquire one for your grandson and to flee the mob that arrived on the scene. And then out of nowhere, someone handcuffs you. i think any reasonable person would naturally be taken aback at that situation and feel they were being treated unfairly. The police report makes no mention that the man was attempting to leave the store which one would think if his intention was to steal the item. And given the fact that all video games, DVD's etc have electronic security tags, it's highly unlikely he was trying to steal the item.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 11-29-2011 at 01:34 PM..
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
15,858 posts, read 18,616,037 times
Reputation: 8209
Incidents like these must serve as a lesson to everyone: when the cops are trying to arrest you, don't move, don't talk. They are looking for any excuse to justify beating citizens. I know this is hard to believe if you live a sheltered life in a tony subdivision. You think they are on your side, but They are trained to think you are guilty nomatter how scant the evidence. Your well-being and even your life is in danger anytime you interact with law enforcement - especially in the smaller cities. Like I said earlier, the kind of thing that went on at the Walmart happens many times a day on our streets. Hardly a day goes by in this city anymore where we don't hear of the cops shooting someone to death. This time, though, they are not going to get away with it. People saw what happened and put it out there on YouTube making sure that they will not get away with the usual cover up.

Last edited by Ponderosa; 11-29-2011 at 01:59 PM..
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