diversity? Racism? (Gilbert: condo, wages, jobs)

[florida southerner 3]

Originally Posted by cxray

I will admit this about the Phoenix metro. They are very racist toward Mexicans. Seriously, I've not heard racist comments about any other ethnic group but I regularly hear racist comments about Mexicans. Even some of the comments here that are not meant to be racist are racist. Why should we penalize someone because they choose not to integrate into mainstream white culture. People should respect people for who they are even if it means they don't adopt the mainstream.

I do feel that a lot of the racism toward Mexicans in Phoenix is cultural. People grew up hating Mexicans here. Their parents didn't like them and now they don't like them. We are trained to hire Mexicans because they are cheap labor. Hire the Mexican gardener because he is cheap. Hire a Mexican housemaid because she will save you a lot of money but make sure to watch her so she doesn't steal anything. Need some project to be done, drive by Home Depot and pick up some Mexicans.Damn Mexicans move to Phoenix but don't learn English. It's almost like the white people in Phoenix are taught to hate Mexicans and think of them dirty Mexicans.

It's strange because these same people have been very gracious with me but with Mexicans, it's like a double standard. They just hate Mexicans for whatever reason. It's one thing to hate illegal immigration and another thing entirely to hate Mexicans personally. In Phoenix, it seems like people have a difficult time distinguishing between the two.

I like the Mexicans personally. They work hard. They don't give you attitude. They are polite and quiet for the most part. If you go to a McDonalds, the Mexican cashier is usualy nicer than the punk teenage girl who feels she is too good for her job.

One cannot really be racist towards Mexicans since Mexican is not a race, but a nationality. One might just as well say, "are you racist towards Canadians or Americans?" even for that matter! True most around 90 percent of Mexicans are an ancient Mulatto race. Ancient Blacks and Whites from well over 2,000 years ago migrated and formed the Aboriginal American populations. New coming Whites (Spaniards) and Blacks West Africans and such) brought new blood to Mexico. Today, most of Mexico is Mulatto, but around 1 percent are Black and 9 percent are White. Therefore, if a Black American happened to be racist towards a Black Mexican, wouldn't they be guilty of racism towards their own race? And if a White American is racist towards a White Mexican, isn't that being racist towards your own race? I should think so! The illegal Mexicans pouring across the border just so happen to be predominantly in the Mulatto category, predominantly of Aztec, Toltec, Olmec, etc., ancestry with maybe a little modern day White (Spanish) and Black (West African) in there as well. But that still doesn't make Mexican a race any more than Canadian or American!

[bigtallredhead]

An american can be of any race and culture dose not necessarily correlate with ethnic decent. Many Mexican Americans are more culturally Anglo then Mexican, often much more so even, but they are still likely to consider themselves to be Latino (and also american) and also regarded as Latino by others. A valid argument could still be made that that is wrong, however. Of coarse many with spanish sur names have no Latin american decent (but rather only direct European/spanish, -or they might be Filipino!) and likely do not call themselves as Latino on the census. but a person who identifies as cultural Latino/Chicano, Puerto Rican etc. etc.. dose not necessarily speak spanish. In the U.S., many do not, actualy.

A lot of people are cultural hybrids (the mixture in culture, -like much of the U.S.) that has of coarse also become unique and developed it's own elements over time that are now native the U.S.

Actually "white" is historical not really a single group. The Turkic and Slavic people were the same at the time of Christ, the Anglo Germanic people are also Caucasian, but the Celtic people though related are diferant and appeared not to be true Caucasians. Mediterranean Europeans also have some distinct differences from those farther north and are not fully Caucasian. My basic point is, Europeans are diverse, so are people of the middle east. ALL groups of humans are more well more then 99% alike and are ALL a single species. but to the extent that there are genetic pedigrees of humanity (which do exist but are blurry and often do not correspond to social boundaries) Europeans are historically NOT of a single group.

Originally Posted by florida southerner 3

Spaniards are no different than other White Eurasians. And there are more White Latin Americans than there are White Anglo Americans to be honest. I'm of Spanish and French ancestry and I'm clearly a White man and proud of it! The problem arises when people pidgeon hole a nationality and declare that they are this or that. There are Blacks in all countries just as there are Whites in all countries. I would say that the majority of Iranians and Turks are White to borderline White (aka Mixed to slight degree with ancient Blacks from the area) but still predominantly a Mediterranean (Semitic) people.

Anglo is the equivalent of Hispano or Latino. Hispanics are only Spanish-speaking Latinos. Whereas Latinos can be, in addition to Spanish-speaking, also French-speaking, Portuguese-speaking, Italian-speaking, Romanian-speaking peoples. And Frenchmen, Italians, Portuguese, Romanians, and Spaniards are all 99 percent White nations! An Anglo American is an American that speaks English and is culturally Anglocized in pretty much every way, regardless of their ancestral nationality or race. Black English-speaking Americans are technically Anglo. So this brings up a pertinent point. Is an English-speaking American that is virtually Anglo in every aspect of his culture, attitudes, etc., etc., all except for his last name which happens to be Spanish still a Latino or a Hispanic? Absolutely not! They are an Anglo American like the rest of us!My last name is Spanish but I'm not Hispanic nor Latino!

As for many Americans discounting Spaniards and sometimes Portuguese, that is totally unwarranted. These 2 nations are 99 percent White in genetic makeup. Spaniards and Portuguese are for the most part the same or pretty close to Italians, French, Germans, Britons, Ukrainians, etc. There's minor differences, but they are all essentially White and share much more in common physically than to the contrary.

I challenge anybody on here or anywhere else to give me evidence that Spaniards, Portuguese, and many Iranians and Afghans are not White!

There are many Portuguese and spanish, -as well as Italians, among other Europeans, who are not white (and I am not referring to immigrants of recent decades or their descendants either. Many spanish are also very white, far from all are. they are actualy fairly diverse in skin tone and features being of historically mixed origin, like the Italians. My step father is of Italian decent and he is definitely NOT what I would call white nor even truly Caucasian. Not even close. But he is still a sort of European (in decent and appearance). But they are still European, -the two (Euro and white) are truly not necessarily the same. -Emil.

[Arizona Annie]

Originally Posted by cxray

I would like to agree with you but I don't. I think too many people in this country assume being American is in fact going to bars, eating meat, watching sports, having pre-marital sex, sleeping around, being clean shaven and trying to look like everyone else...etc I know this is a big reason why Mormons are discriminated against by the mainstream here. I know people who won't live in Gilbert simply too many Mormons live there.

I fit the person above but I have friends who are American. They were born and raised here. They speak fluent English but they are also tied down to their own culture. Many of them are vegetarians and actively participate in their temple. Many of the Sikhs I know wear turbans and have beards but grew up here. Sorry, but they are not treated the same way I am because people hold it against them for not integrating.

My wife is a vegetarian and she gets $#%# from waiters in restaurats for asking them to hold meat on her food because it's too weird for them.

Wow. I need to get out more. I had no idea. Do you think it might be a generational thing? Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy with my head in the sand. I personally love learning about all cultures and started a thread on this forum so I could learn more.

[florida southerner 3]

Originally Posted by pynkpanther

the crazy thing about being white in america is that "white" is a concept and is highly subjective...some people that are considered "white" now weren't some time ago. some people that where "white" before surely aren't now.

Some might consider White subjective and have so treated it, but honestly, it is what it is. Being White is not a single exact look, culture, accent, way of life, attitude, religion. It's a phenotype, plain and simple. People have made it subjective based on their own biases and lack of common sense and logic. There are White people that are as different in culture as Pluto is from Mercury, yet they're all physiologically White in racial characteristics. Both Nordics and Mediterraneans are close enough in appearance to be considered White. They ahve their differences, sure, but those differences pale in comparison when set along side a Black, physically speaking. If you stood a true Black, next to a true Mediterranean White and a true Nordic White, the Nordic and Mediterranean would look far more similar to one another. But, all humanity is genetically related, Black, White, or Mixed! But being White of black is not subjective at it's root. It's not a feeling, an identification, or a personal choice or axe to grind. It is what it is!

[florida southerner 3]

Originally Posted by bigtallredhead

Actually "white" is historical not really a single group. The Turkic and Slavic people were the same at the time of Christ, the Anglo Germanic people are also Caucasian, but the Celtic people though related are diferant and appeared not to be true Caucasians. Mediterranean Europeans also have some distinct differences from those farther north and are not fully Caucasian.

the point is, Europeans are diverse, so are people of the middle east. ALL groups of humans are more well more then 99% alike and are ALL a single species. but to the extent that there are genetic pedigrees of humanity (which do exist but are blurry and often do not correspond to social boundaries) Europeans are historically NOT of a single group.




-Emil.

Nordic Whites descend from Japheth, the father of all the Indo-European peoples--14 proto-nations. Mediterranean Whites descend from Shem, the father of all the Semitic peoples--26 proto-nations. Blacks descend from Ham, the father of all the Hamitic (Afro-Asiatic) peoples--30 proto-nations.

The original Nordic Whites and Mediterranean Whites were both fully White. Mixing came after the Tower of Babble. Prior to this event, all humanity was racially and linguistically uniform. That is the evidence that does exist suggests a language we would call Semitic nowadays, was the language spoken before the Flood all the way back to Adam. Their racial affiliation would have thus been Semitic (i.e Mediterranean White) as well.

But, there is no Hispanic/Latino race, Middle Eastern race, Arab race, Asian race, African race, European race, Native American race, Pacific Islander race, Indian race, Mongoloid race, Oriental race, etc., etc., etc. All people on Earth are either White (Mediterranean or Nordic or Med. Nord. mix--still White), Black, or Mulatto!

[bigtallredhead]

Well, let's just say that BIGOTRY is not necessarily about "race". But if it is bigotry against an ethnic group OR nationality (Latinos can be U.S. citizens whith families who have been here a long time as is true for many in the southwest) it still group bigotry just the same. And that can also be fulled by racial stereotype's about a group, even if not accurate. If so that is still a form of racism.

But I do NOT agree that opposition to illegal immigration is racism bigotry against mexicans, -I am sick of that accusation! Unfortunately, they are both common and yes some people are of coarse BOTH. However, there is far too much false conflation and over generalization all around going on.

Originally Posted by florida southerner 3

One cannot really be racist towards Mexicans since Mexican is not a race, but a nationality. One might just as well say, "are you racist towards Canadians or Americans?" even for that matter! True most around 90 percent of Mexicans are an ancient Mulatto race. Ancient Blacks and Whites from well over 2,000 years ago migrated and formed the Aboriginal American populations. New coming Whites (Spaniards) and Blacks West Africans and such) brought new blood to Mexico. Today, most of Mexico is Mulatto, but around 1 percent are Black and 9 percent are White. Therefore, if a Black American happened to be racist towards a Black Mexican, wouldn't they be guilty of racism towards their own race? And if a White American is racist towards a White Mexican, isn't that being racist towards your own race? I should think so! The illegal Mexicans pouring across the border just so happen to be predominantly in the Mulatto category, predominantly of Aztec, Toltec, Olmec, etc., ancestry with maybe a little modern day White (Spanish) and Black (West African) in there as well. But that still doesn't make Mexican a race any more than Canadian or American!

[Arizona Annie]

Originally Posted by cxray

I have mixed feelings regardings your comments. I lived in the west valley for 5 years. I really wanted to like it. I'm a guy that roots for the underdog but I saw so much backward crap living there that it is difficult for me not to stereotype it. I remember the fast food people would give my wife a hard time because she ordered a cheeseburger without meat. That has never happened to my wife here in the east valley. Also, the drivers on the west side can be scary with their big monster trucks driving 70 down Bell.

I was in Aribba Mexican restaurant in Bell and the 101 (Arrowhead). This redneck got up and slammed his fists on our table because some of us were using the F word too loudly. Granted, we were wrong for cursing(it was my idiot friend who lacks an inner voice). Nonetheless, he could have asked us nicely instead of pounding his fists on our table and calling us F%$%$#sticks. Sorry but that is so West Side!

I owe you an apology. I know stereotyping is wrong. I met some great people in the west valley; I'm sure you are one of them. At the same time, I wish people in the west valley would take some responsibility for their backward elements instead of denying it all the time. I know you guys think people rip on the west side out of spite but there is some truth to a lot of the jokes about the west side. Watch the news and a lot of that happens near Glendale. My car insurance dropped 200 bucks a year for simply moving back to the east valley due to the car theft up there; and I lived in Arrowhead

Actually, most of us in the far West valley don't consider Arrowhead the West side, more the Northwest side. I agree there probably are some "white trash/rednecks" in the West Valley, but probably not anymore here than anywhere else. You are right about stereotyping. I would never make the statement (for instance) that Scottsdale is full of elitists because although I know there are some there, I also know there are plenty who are not. I also know there are some here, and probably everywhere.

To be honest, although I wouldn't pound on your table and call you names if you used the F word, I personally find it very distasteful to swear. I tend to believe those who find the need to swear in conversation lack the vocabulary to have an intelligent conversation. But now this is me stereotyping. This is just the way I was raised. Probably also has to do with when I was raised. If this makes me a redneck, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. But that wouldn't be a redneck by the definition I learned. It would simply make me a lady (or a gentleman, as the case may be).

[bigtallredhead]

Originally Posted by florida southerner 3

Nordic Whites descend from Japheth, the father of all the Indo-European peoples--14 proto-nations. Mediterranean Whites descend from Shem, the father of all the Semitic peoples--26 proto-nations. Blacks descend from Ham, the father of all the Hamitic (Afro-Asiatic) peoples--30 proto-nations.

The original Nordic Whites and Mediterranean Whites were both fully White. Mixing came after the Tower of Babble. Prior to this event, all humanity was racially and linguistically uniform. That is the evidence that does exist suggests a language we would call Semitic nowadays, was the language spoken before the Flood all the way back to Adam. Their racial affiliation would have thus been Semitic (i.e Mediterranean White) as well.

But, there is no Hispanic/Latino race, Middle Eastern race, Arab race, Asian race, African race, European race, Native American race, Pacific Islander race, Indian race, Mongoloid race, Oriental race, etc., etc., etc. All people on Earth are either White (Mediterranean or Nordic or Med. Nord. mix--still White), Black, or Mulatto!

OK, I do not believe in the story of the origins of humanity literally as told in the old testament, nor believe that the bible is the literal word of god (though I do believe it is godly inspired and SOME of it (actualy a lot) is quite true. I am going by D.N.A. evidence/trials that have been done. Especially the human genome project. I believe the world is ancient, not 6000years old.

BTW I also do believe in both the existence of God and of Jesus Christ, But if By Christian you mean a literal believer in the bible, then no I am not. In that since I am an agnostic (NOT an atheist, but an agnostic). -Emil.

[TurcoLoco]

All this race talk seems really amusing when you consider the possibility of all humans coming from Adam and Eve or (worst case scenario) from apes!

I hate every race and everyone equally till they give my posts a positive point!!

[bigtallredhead]

Originally Posted by Arizona Annie

Actually, most of us in the far West valley don't consider Arrowhead the West side, more the Northwest side. I agree there probably are some "white trash/rednecks" in the West Valley, but probably not anymore here than anywhere else. You are right about stereotyping. I would never make the statement (for instance) that Scottsdale is full of elitists because although I know there are some there, I also know there are plenty who are not. I also know there are some here, and probably everywhere.

To be honest, although I wouldn't pound on your table and call you names if you used the F word, I personally find it very distasteful to swear. I tend to believe those who find the need to swear in conversation lack the vocabulary to have an intelligent conversation. But now this is me stereotyping. This is just the way I was raised. Probably also has to do with when I was raised. If this makes me a redneck, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. But that wouldn't be a redneck by the definition I learned. It would simply make me a lady (or a gentleman, as the case may be).

good point's. I also have encountered some people who could be called "redneck" (not white trash) who certainly cursed. A lot depends on ones definition. I will say that working class, and aspecialy more low class whites are certainly not evenly distributed (far from it) within the white populations of most U.S. metro areas, but nor are we highly segregated, either. I am white working class and I do find it offensive when many make assumptions about people like me, call us "rednecks" in a negative way etc.. It's just over generalizing/steriotyping even though there are certainly some who do fit many of the stereotypes. The same goes for other groups, too.