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Old 04-13-2009, 02:43 AM
 
9,026 posts, read 9,604,117 times
Reputation: 6419
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTryingMyBest View Post
The Framingham Study dates from 1948. I fail to see how it is releveant to our discussion here. The National Institutes of Health recommends oral cancer screening. That's good enough for me and many of your colleagues.

Do I feel it's fair to charge $60 extra for a Vizilite oral cancer screening? If I had the technology I might. I don't have Vizilite so I don't charge extra for the screening. I do inform my patients when I'm perfoming the exam and they often comment that they're glad I'm doing it. In fact, oftentimes I hear complaints from my patients that their previous dentist never screened them, and their physicians never did either.
The Framingham Study is relevant because much of cardiological treatment protocol today is based on that old study so to suggest that a study which was performed in 2004 is some how irrelevant is assinine.

And I'm not specifically referring to the Vizitilite oral cancer screening. What I've been saying is that dentists will examine your oral cavity and then ask you to come back for a second appointment to get the cleaning. So they will charge you for two visits. The first is for an "oral cancer screen" and the second visit is for a cleaning. That is a scam. That's all I've been saying.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:46 AM
 
40 posts, read 89,933 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
You are trying but it's not going to work. In that exact post you refer to, I further explained that dentists were scamming patients on the day of their cleaning because instead of cleaning their teeth, they looked into their mouth and charged them for an "oral cancer screen" and then asked them to come back for a cleaning whereas normally, a hygienist cleans your teeth and then the dentist examines your mouth which is included in the standard exam and cleaning.

Actually here's the entire quote from post #102: "Ask in advance if the dentist cleans your teeth the day of the appointment. A new scam is the "oral cancer screen" You will make an appointment for a cleaning. On the day of your clearning the dentist will just peer into your mouth and charge you for an "oral cancer screen" and then try to schedule your cleaning the next day or on another vist. Furthermore, ask in advance what is entailed in the cleaning. Some dentists will charge you a separate fee for the "oral cancer screen" in addition to your cleaning fee which could cost you another $50 dollars."

You clearly stated it's a scam. I stated that oftentimes the cleanings are done at a seperate appointment, especially if you are a new patient.

Look if you feel the risk of having a Vizilite oral cancer screening is not warranted, you can always decline the service and not get charged. To claim that it is a scam, however is just ridiculous.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:50 AM
 
40 posts, read 89,933 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
The Framingham Study is relevant because much of cardiological treatment protocol today is based on that old study so to suggest that a study which was performed in 2004 is some how irrelevant is assinine.

And I'm not specifically referring to the Vizitilite oral cancer screening. What I've been saying is that dentists will examine your oral cavity and then ask you to come back for a second appointment to get the cleaning. So they will charge you for two visits. The first is for an "oral cancer screen" and the second visit is for a cleaning. That is a scam. That's all I've been saying.
You most certainly are refering to Vizilite. You've pointed to it time and time again in your posts. I've pointed out time and time again, that oftentimes you get a cleaning on a seperate day from your exam. Nothing wrong with that. Geez, give it up will ya? If you're a cheap ass who doesn't want to pay for dental services, don't go to the dentist! EVER. You'll be doing the dentist a favor. BTW, you can't possibly be a practicing cardiologist, otherwise you'd need to be doing rounds in a few hours. And if you are, I feel sorry for your patients.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:55 AM
 
9,026 posts, read 9,604,117 times
Reputation: 6419
Do you make patients schedule a separate visit for the exam and the cleaning?
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:56 AM
 
40 posts, read 89,933 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
Do you make patients schedule a separate visit for the exam and the cleaning?

can you read?
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:02 AM
 
9,026 posts, read 9,604,117 times
Reputation: 6419
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustTryingMyBest View Post
You most certainly are refering to Vizilite. You've pointed to it time and time again in your posts. I've pointed out time and time again, that oftentimes you get a cleaning on a seperate day from your exam. Nothing wrong with that. Geez, give it up will ya? If you're a cheap ass who doesn't want to pay for dental services, don't go to the dentist! EVER. You'll be doing the dentist a favor. BTW, you can't possibly be a practicing cardiologist, otherwise you'd need to be doing rounds in a few hours. And if you are, I feel sorry for your patients.
I didn't know what Vizilite was until you mentioned it. I just found a quick article that refuted it.

And you are just upset because advice such as mine hurts unethical scam artist dentists like yourself who prey on the public by forcing them to make two visits for a cleaning and an examination. Ethical dentists do it in the same day. And based on some of your comments, your lack of medical knowledge is pretty scary. I would not trust my oral health in your hands. Seriously, how did you graduate from dental school and not know when to order an MRI and an X-ray.

I'm active in research as well and these last two months have been devoted to publishing a paper which is why I've been active on the computer.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 04-13-2009 at 04:26 AM..
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:09 AM
 
40 posts, read 89,933 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
I didn't know what Vizilite was until you mentioned it. I just found a quick article that refuted it.

And you are just upset because advice such as mine hurts unethical scam artist dentists like yourself who prey on the public by forcing them to make two visits for a cleaning and an examination. Ethical dentists do it in the same day. And based on some of your comments, your lack of medical knowledge is pretty scary. I would not trust my oral health in your hands. Seriously, how did you graduate from dental school and not know when to order an MRI and an X-ray.
Dude, the website you posted is an opinion site by one single guy LOL! Now I know you're not an MD. You're a troll.

Only ethical dentist do cleanings and exams on the same day? You're off your rocker.

My knowledge of medical science it would seem, far surpasses your knowledge of dentistry. And if you really had a medical degree, you'd know that general dentists don't use MRI's.

Hey, it's been nice chatting with a you, Mr. Troll. I hope some people will benefit from what they've learned here. Always ask questions if you're not sure what's going on. A good dentist will LISTEN to you. You do get what you pay for. And beware of the TROLLS!!!

G'nite. Gotta go and make a living so that I can pay my taxes so the Feds can pay for your welfare and social security checks!
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:15 AM
 
9,026 posts, read 9,604,117 times
Reputation: 6419
I deleted my response. My apologies to the forum

Last edited by azriverfan.; 04-13-2009 at 04:38 AM..
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:24 AM
 
9,026 posts, read 9,604,117 times
Reputation: 6419
I have a feeling this thread will be closed due to the personal attacks. I apologize to the forum for taking part in this nonsense. As a physician, I'm very passionate about being a patient advocate and doing what is in the best interest of the patient. Nonetheless, I want to provide some helpful information before this thread is closed.

1. Get Dental Insurance!!! - It protects you from abuse by certain dentists who order extensive treatment plans which could cost you thousands of dollars. If you can afford dental insurance, please consider getting it. Because if you have an emergency the last thing you want to do is be held hostage by an unethical dentist who charges you a hefty fee and puts you on a long-term payment plan to which he charges your credit card each month. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion. An honest dentist will care for your wellbeing and will want you to be confident in your decision. If they take offense to a suggestion like that, that is probably a dentist you want to avoid.

2. If the dentists ask you to schedule two separate vists for the exam and the cleaning, seek another dentist. An ethical dentist will do the cleaning and exam on the same visit. Most dentists will advertise a single fee for an exam and cleaning which doesn't include any X-rays. The hygienist will perform the cleaning and the dentist will examine your mouth and will then make his or her assessment. They will then schedule any treatment that may be necessary. Call the dentists office in advance and ask what their policy is on this. There is no need to pay for two separate visits. Ask the dentist office if they charge a separate fee for an oral cancer screening. Unethical dentists are charging a separate fee aside from the exam fee. I'm not referring to the Vizilite test.

3. If you are financially strapped but require seeing a dentist, consider going to the local dental school. http://www.atsudental.com/dental_services/ The Arizona School of Dentistry has a clinic in which 4th year students perform these services and are supervised.

4. Don't get the Vizilite test. Research has not shown it to be any more effective than an incandescent bulb. In addition, the American Dental Association has not approved of the procedure. Dentists pay 20-30 for the kit and typically charge $65 for this. Again, this is another scam

5. Most patients will not require a Panoramic study. The Panoramic study is used to assess impacted teeth, jaw pathology such as TMJ and preop for dental implant procedures. Unfortunately, some dentists are using this study on healthy patients with no evidence of periodontal disease. They use it because they can charge more money for the films.

6. Call and ask in advance how much they charge for standard bite-wing X-rays and periapical views. If they refuse to provide that information over the phone, go elsewhere

7. Go to www.ratemds.com; There is a dentist section on there and please be sure to rate your dentist on there whether he is good or bad. Let the public know what you thought.

8. If your experience at your dentist office wasn't positive and you are going to see another dentist, ask for a copy of your films to which the dentist is legally obliged to provide you with in addition to a copy of your medical record at that office.

9. If they recommend the "Deep Cleaning" be skeptical particularly if you maintain proper oral hygiene. Feel free to get a second opinion.

10. Check out Dr. Judd in Chandler (Dobson and Elliot) Several people have nominated him and unfortunately that got lost in this bickering

Good Luck Everyone, send me a PM if you have any questions regarding healthcare etc.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 04-13-2009 at 04:55 AM..
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:54 PM
 
40 posts, read 89,933 times
Reputation: 18
My responses are in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
I have a feeling this thread will be closed due to the personal attacks. I apologize to the forum for taking part in this nonsense. As a physician, I'm very passionate about being a patient advocate and doing what is in the best interest of the patient. Nonetheless, I want to provide some helpful information before this thread is closed.

As a physician, you should know better than to make blanket statements about dental procedures that this thread has proven you know very little about. Everyone claims to be a patient advocate these days. Rather than dismissing dentistry as a scam, perhaps taking the time to learn about the diagnosis of dental disease and dental procedures, would better serve the public.

1. Get Dental Insurance!!! - It protects you from abuse by certain dentists who order extensive treatment plans which could cost you thousands of dollars. If you can afford dental insurance, please consider getting it. Because if you have an emergency the last thing you want to do is be held hostage by an unethical dentist who charges you a hefty fee and puts you on a long-term payment plan to which he charges your credit card each month. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion. An honest dentist will care for your wellbeing and will want you to be confident in your decision. If they take offense to a suggestion like that, that is probably a dentist you want to avoid.

There is always a choice. Patients are not "held hostage" in dentistry. If you don't have the funds for a procdure, there are always alternatives. You can also find a cheaper dentist. Or if you have lots and lots of time, you can try your luck at the locla dental school.

There's nothing wrong with getting a second opinion. I encourage them. My only caveat is that you find someone who is well trained and has a good reputation. The oldest game in town is to steal a patient by making the patient seeking a second opinion believe that a recommended procedure is not needed. That's just what the patient wants to hear. If the procedure is really not needed, that's ok. Just make sure it's the truth.

2. If the dentists ask you to schedule two separate vists for the exam and the cleaning, seek another dentist. An ethical dentist will do the cleaning and exam on the same visit. Most dentists will advertise a single fee for an exam and cleaning which doesn't include any X-rays. The hygienist will perform the cleaning and the dentist will examine your mouth and will then make his or her assessment. They will then schedule any treatment that may be necessary. Call the dentists office in advance and ask what their policy is on this. There is no need to pay for two separate visits. Ask the dentist office if they charge a separate fee for an oral cancer screening. Unethical dentists are charging a separate fee aside from the exam fee. I'm not referring to the Vizilite test.

This is where asriverfan is totally wrong. Whether you get your cleaning done at the same time as your exam has NOTHING to do with the ethics of a dentist. It is simply a logistical matter. If you are a new patient and the hygienist schedule is full, it is common to have your exam done first, and then be scheduled seperately for a cleaning. Some patients need more than a regular cleaning. The initial exam will determine that. It's called making a diagnosis.

If you think you're paying for two exams, ask the dentist. Most dentist scharge a single fee for an examination.

3. If you are financially strapped but require seeing a dentist, consider going to the local dental school. Dental Clinic | A.T. Still University The Arizona School of Dentistry has a clinic in which 4th year students perform these services and are supervised.

There's nothing wrong with this advice. You can get excellent treatmetn at the dental school The only downside is that oftentimes procedures take hours and hours longer becuase each minute step performed by the dental student must be checked off by clinical instructor.

4. Don't get the Vizilite test. Research has not shown it to be any more effective than an incandescent bulb. In addition, the American Dental Association has not approved of the procedure. Dentists pay 20-30 for the kit and typically charge $65 for this. Again, this is another scam

The above statement is misleading at best. The American Dental Association endorsement is not comprehensive and many fine and effective products are used everyday that have not receive the ADA seal of approval.

The bottom line is oral cancer is the 6th deadliest cancer. It's up to you whether you want to have the Vizilite or any other test performed. Do your own research and ask questions. If it's worth it to you go for it. If not, decline. The dentist will understand.

5. Most patients will not require a Panoramic study. The Panoramic study is used to assess impacted teeth, jaw pathology such as TMJ and preop for dental implant procedures. Unfortunately, some dentists are using this study on healthy patients with no evidence of periodontal disease. They use it because they can charge more money for the films.

Interesting. azriver fan has learned a thing or two about dentistry after reading my posts! He's gone from a blanket statement that panoramic xrays are a scam, to actually realizing that it has a diagnostic purpose. BTW, panoramic films are not ideal for visualizing periodontal disease. Bitewing x-rays by virtue of the fact that they are shot at a 90 degree angle to the tooth and bone, are the best for evaluation of periodontal disease. And make sure your dentist probes the pockets around the necks of the teeth.

If you gag when regular x-rays are taken, then a panoramic x-ray, while not ideal, is a good substitute. Panoramic x-rays are extra-oral. In otherwords there is nothing that goes in the mouth. The machine rotates around your head.

If you need a panoramic x-ray then your dentist will recommend it. If your not sure about the need, most dentists will be happy to explain to you why you need one. I encourage patients to ask questions. The better informed you are, the less likely you are to have a misunderstanding.

6. Call and ask in advance how much they charge for standard bite-wing X-rays and periapical views. If they refuse to provide that information over the phone, go elsewhere

No problem with that. However, you might also inquire about whether the x-rays are done with film or digitally. Digital x-rays actually show more by virtue of the fact that the image can be blown up on a computer screen. The contrast and sharpness can be adjusted as necessary to aid in making a diagnosis.

7. Go to www.ratemds.com; There is a dentist section on there and please be sure to rate your dentist on there whether he is good or bad. Let the public know what you thought.

Instead of just relying on a website, ask your friends and family for a referral. Some of those websites only tell part of the story. Happy patients are much less likely to say anything, while an unhappy patient will go out of his way to make as much noise as possible. It's just human nature.

8. If your experience at your dentist office wasn't positive and you are going to see another dentist, ask for a copy of your films to which the dentist is legally obliged to provide you with in addition to a copy of your medical record at that office.

No problem with this at all. I have patients leaving the office becuase they got talked into an HMO plan. Then they find that the HMO clinic is a mill where they don't get any personalized service at all. A good number of these patients eventually come back to my office as a result. They appreciate honest, ethical, and quality service.


9. If they recommend the "Deep Cleaning" be skeptical particularly if you maintain proper oral hygiene. Feel free to get a second opinion.

No problem with this either. I see azriverfan has modified his stance from believing that all deep cleanings are scams.

10. Check out Dr. Judd in Chandler (Dobson and Elliot) Several people have nominated him and unfortunately that got lost in this bickering

Good Luck Everyone, send me a PM if you have any questions regarding healthcare etc.
azriver fan has come quite a way from his biased and uneducated blanket misinformative statements. Obviouisly he's learned a lot about dentistry after reading my posts! I do give him credit for finally modifying his position to something more reasonable.

In the end, as a patient you should always ask questions if you don't understand why a procedure is recommended. If you have any questions at all, just ask. Most dentist (and hopefully physicians) would prefer that you understand what's going on. It serves no one's interest for the patient to be in the dark. If you are well informed and feel like you've received a good service, then please refer your family and friends to that dentist. Good luck to everyone.
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