Relocating from Maine to AZ (Phoenix, Tucson: crimes, how much, quality of life)

[doublet]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

I'm assuming you meant me?

Of course a1m1700 meant you, Speedy. You ARE Mr. Money with the Porsche, not the BMW. Your posts reveal you to be very disconnected from the regular folk. I realize Phoenix (meaning Scottsdale) is a wonderful life if you can afford the ivory tower to protect yourself from the crime, grime and otherwise unsavory. But most of us can't do that, so we do the best we can. What I am hearing is that it is nearly impossible to find a "nice," safe, healthy neighborhood for raising children without spending $400,000 or more. And even THOSE neighborhoods may not have good schools, or may have increasing violent crime. So what do you really get for this investment that is simply not attainable for MOST of America? Good Weather 5 months out of the year? Seems it's like Miker posted..."It's clearly a follow the money" kinda city.

[steve22]

Follow the money, the economy, and the southwestern demographic shift. That's how most of us ended up here, and it's why I've stayed up to this point. I will say that even after just 3 years, the quality of life now compared to what it was when I moved here has declined noticeably. Seriously, there wasn't this much violent crime when I moved here, the traffic was bad but not THIS bad, and we didn't have the air pollution warnings with nearly the frequency that we do now. It's no coincidence that, if you look back about 15 years, Phoenix was near the top of most of the well-read rankings of America's most desirable big cities to live in. Now, the reputation of the city is in a free-fall, and you'll find Phoenix ranked nowhere near the top of anyone's lists of good cities to live in. My opinions may sound overly critical and harsh, but they're all valid. And apparently, they're shared by enough people who've either lived here or visited who make those so-called city quality ranking lists, like the ones on Sperling's.

[doublet]

Originally Posted by a1m1700

African killer bees (does anyone else have those?) and RSV for the little ones. I'm not sure if anyone else has RSV either. I know anyone that has a baby should not take it out during that season.

What's RSV? Good Lord, something else to fear in Phoenix??!!?

[steve22]

Respiratory Syncitial Virus. It's the common cause of infant bronchiolitis, which usually isn't much more than a severe cold but can, in rare cases, be fatal in infants younger than 6 months who contract it. It's actually very common, and it's been postulated that almost all kids are exposed to it one way or another before the age of 2. There isn't any increased risk of exposure to it, that I'm aware of, by geographical location (unlike valley fever). I wouldn't be too concerned about it (again, unlike valley fever).

[SpeedyAZ]

Of course a1m1700 meant you, Speedy. You ARE Mr. Money with the Porsche, not the BMW. Your posts reveal you to be very disconnected from the regular folk. I realize Phoenix (meaning Scottsdale) is a wonderful life if you can afford the ivory tower to protect yourself from the crime, grime and otherwise unsavory. But most of us can't do that, so we do the best we can. What I am hearing is that it is nearly impossible to find a "nice," safe, healthy neighborhood for raising children without spending $400,000 or more. And even THOSE neighborhoods may not have good schools, or may have increasing violent crime. So what do you really get for this investment that is simply not attainable for MOST of America? Good Weather 5 months out of the year? Seems it's like Miker posted..."It's clearly a follow the money" kinda city.

I am in no way disconnected from the "regular folk". I grew up on a farm in Iowa, I moved here, and have worked **** hard to get where I am. I'm not wealthy, far from it. I bought at the right time, worked hard to be able to afford a few nice things in my life, and enjoy my life.

Do you think that gangs run rampant in the streets of Phoenix (meaning Phoenix)? Any city has it's share of crime, take a look at L.A., Miami, NYC, Dallas, Houston, even Steve's wonderful Denver. No city is perfect or everyone would be living there! I don't think it's possible to just a city based on the opinions of a few people, you need to experience it by yourself.

And I have traveled to many different cities, I've "been there, done that" and experienced the true city, not just the tourist destinations that the general public is interested in. I like to find the local cafes, the hidden gems that not everyone can find. There are only 3 cities that I would consider living in beside Phoenix; San Francisco, Houston, and possibly Fort Lauderdale.

[Dwayne Pipe]

Originally Posted by doublet

OMG!!! you have me rolling!

Oh, that's good. I'm glad someone got something positive out of my suffering. Seriously, you should see this witch. She can kill a man from 10 paces with one blow of her tongue! Not that I'm bitter or anything...

[steve22]

IMO, the pros don't even com CLOSE to outweighing the cons. And since Speedy has singled out "my beloved Denver" as having comparable crime to Phoenix (almost fell out of my chair laughing at that one- trust me, you are WAY wrong there), I've decided to break down his list.


1. Great people: sorry, disagree. There's a significantly high population of rednecks, gangsters, retirees, and rich fake snobs with big bank accounts but not an ounce of class or intelligence. Normally, crime statistics reflect pretty reliably the general personality traits of a community. Cities with a higher percentage of the population who are not educated, live in a lower socio-economic class or who have been raised with little moral guidance tend to have more crime. There's got to be a reason that crime is so out of hand here, and I'd venture to guess that it's got a little something to do with the types of people living here. Coincidence that Denver's got much less crime? Doubt it.

2. Good schools: No, it doesn't have good schools. By what comparison would you ever make that statement? Arizona's public school funding woes, nation-wide high dropout rates, and abysmal standard proficiency testing scores among its students are well-documented.

3. Plenty of activities: depends on what you want to do. If you like the city life, with lots of arts, cultural activities, etc., there’s practically nothing here at all in that regard, as I’ve said. The golf is great, but very expensive. Be prepared to pay greens fees upwards of $150 or more at a halfway decent course during the winter. Hiking, mountain biking, etc.: there are nice preserved mountain & desert recreational areas in and around the city, but they’re only good for half the year unless you can take the heat, and they’re very crowded on weekends during the mild months.

4. Spectacular weather for 9 months out of the year: More like 6. Unless your definition of “spectacular” includes temps well into the 90’s. Mine doesn’t. And that’s what you get in late April, May, September and early October. The posters above hit it head-on: iit’s “spectacular” for about 4 months out of the year, cool and mild for 2, very hot for 3, and oppressively, miserably, intolerably hot for another 3.

5. Rarely a rainy or cloudy day: Lots of other cities in the Western U.S. you could say this about, too, that are much nicer all-around cities.

6. Beautiful mountains: if you like the color brown. And you like your mountains small. It’s a stretch to call these mountains, in my opinion. If you’ve been to Salt Lake City, Seattle, Portland, Denver, Flagstaff, Reno, Albuquerque, Vegas, or even Tucson, you know what I mean.

7. Gorgeous sunsets: OK, I’ll give you that one.

8. Plenty of areas to shop, eat, etc.: You could say that about any city. And in general, the food & shopping here is very generic, chain and mall-based stuff. Very little in the way of unique mom-and-pop restaurants or stores. If you’re from New York, San Fran, or any one of many other major cities, you’ll find the dining here overall pretty mediocre by comparison.

9. Booming economy: OK, I’ll give you that one, too.

Now for the cons:

Crime is bad in some areas. Correction: Crime is terrible, it’s rampant, it’s widespread, and it’s getting worse. You can have your opinion, but sorry, you’re wrong. The statistics don’t lie. Phoenix-Mesa had the 4th-most violent crimes committed per-capita of any major city last year. It’s BAD here, and believe me when I tell you that what you’re reading in the paper or seeing on TV is just the tip of the iceberg. Trust me, I’m in a position to know. This is not just about a couple of isolated maniacs on the loose in the streets right now that you’re seeing on the news. It’s about the estimated 7500 individual gang members in about 255 individual gangs in Phoenix (not including Mesa or Glendale). It’s about an unknown, but probably significant number of convicted felons from California and Nevada moving into the valley every day. It’s about a meth epidemic that has reached crisis levels. It’s about an illegal immigration crisis that’s a huge problem with no immediate solution; and the subsequent hordes of illegals, some of whom no doubt have criminal records in Mexico, moving to Phoenix daily. The police are outmanned and outgunned. If certain people in North Scottsdale want to delude themselves into believing that everything’s just peachy here, that’s their business. But they’re kidding themselves, and probably are ripe to become victims themselves by virtue of their naivete.

2. Bad traffic: Um, yeah.

3. Very hot weather: already covered that one.

I’ll add a 4th: Valley fever. You forgot that one. It’s life-threatening, it will stay with you forever in some cases, there’s no cure, and it’s endemic to Phoenix and Tucson.

I think all the other cons that I’d add have already been covered. Yeah, the cons pretty much give the pros a beat-down, from my point of view.

[SpeedyAZ]

In case statistics are of any value to you, here is a compasion between Phoenix and Denver crime statistics. Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site


Crime Category Phoenix,AZ Denver, CO
Robberies 263 255
Rapes 35 55
Homicides 14 11
Aggravated Assaults 356 313
Motor Vehicle Thefts 1754 1280
Crime Lab Index 215 199

These are statistics per 100,000 people. As you can see both cities have almost identical statistics with Phoenix having signifcantly more car thefts and Denver having significantly more rapes. You are wrong about Denver have a low crime rate index when the national average is 100. Let's try another comparison shall we?

Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site

Crime Category Phoenix, AZ Los Angeles, CA
Robberies 263 369
Rapes 35 29
Homicides 14 13
Aggravated Assaults 356 701
Motor Vehicle Thefts 1754 779
Crime Lab Index 215 244

Also per 100,000 people. Statistics speak for themselves.

Where do you get your information that we have an estimated 7500 gang members and 255 gangs? Please enlighten me. I'm sorry I can't revise your list at the moment but my lunch break is over. I'll continue later.

[steve22]

Here is the latest official data from Sperling's, 2005-06 statistics, which measures crime in Metropolitan Statistical Areas- that includes a central city and its surrounding communities, per 100,000 population. Your data's misleading, I'm afraid, since it's only taking into account crime from the city of Phoenix proper- not the entire area, including Mesa, Glendale, Chandler, etc. Also, your "index" of 100 as the national average is misleading, since it's comparing all the small towns' crime rates with the large ones; essentially, it makes Denver look pretty bad since it's calculating an average based on all the small towns in America. Sperling's list index only compares large cities with other large ones: apples to apples, if you will. And yours is a Realtors' site, which I wouldn't trust. Sperling's uses the FBI's data. And keep in mind that this year, some violent crimes in Phoenix- i.e., sexual assault- have already DOUBLED the totals recorded at this time last year. That's what I saw on CNN, from last nights' report on the Baseline Rapist. The website is:


So here's the statistics from Denver (MSA):
Index (overall): 4,821.1
Murder: 4.6
Rape:47.1
Robbery: 110.2
Assault: 224.2
Burglary: 749.5
Larceny: 2,884
Auto Theft: 801.4

Now Phoenix (MSA):

Index overall: 6,846.6 (4th-worst in the nation)
Murder: 8.2
Rape: 27.5
Robbery: 177.1
Assault: 359.4
Burglary: 1,178.0
Larceny: 3,775.8
Auto Theft: 1,320.8

So basically, the only statistical crime that happens with greater frequency in greater Denver than here is rape; and, as I mentioned, the number of sexual assaults are up this year by double what they were last year. In every other category, they're not even close. Yeah, statistics sure do speak for themselves.



And the part about the gangs? Straight out of the East Valley Tribune from a few months ago. Here's a few quotes:

“They’re not your traditional turf gangs,” says Zumbo of DPS. “Now they are very mobile. Gangs in Maryvale are doing burglaries in north Scottsdale.”

"Now, state gang officers estimate there are about 15,000 documented gang members in Arizona, although Campbell says that number likely is low."

Here's the site.
Police struggle with rising gang violence | EastValleyTribune.com (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=59462 - broken link)

Glad to have had the opportunity to enlighten you. Anytime, my friend.

[SpeedyAZ]

Here is the latest official data from Sperling's, 2005-06 statistics, which measures crime in Metropolitan Statistical Areas- that includes a central city and its surrounding communities, per 100,000 population. Your data's misleading, I'm afraid, since it's only taking into account crime from the city of Phoenix proper- not the entire area, including Mesa, Glendale, Chandler, etc. Also, your "index" of 100 as the national average is misleading, since it's comparing all the small towns' crime rates with the large ones; essentially, it makes Denver look pretty bad since it's calculating an average based on all the small towns in America. Sperling's list index only compares large cities with other large ones: apples to apples, if you will. And yours is a Realtors' site, which I wouldn't trust. Sperling's uses the FBI's data

Sperling doesn't compare apples to apples as you say. It takes into account ALL of the cities within the Denver area, some of those are much smaller and have much lower crime rates than the actual city of Denver. And comparing Denver to Phoenix isn't exactly apples to apples, Phoenix has a population nearing 1,700,000 while Denver is sitting around 600,000. The entire Denver area is only 2,300,000 while the greater Phoenix area is nearing the 4,000,000 mark.

Both are rated "7" while the national average is "3" so don't give me any BS about Denver having a low crime rate! And there is something seriously wrong with that list when Detroit, Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, and St. Louis are all rated significantly lower than Phoenix. Detroit has a murder rated of 11 while Phoenix is 8, has a rape rate of nearly 43 while Phoenix is 27, has a robbery rate of 191 while Phoenix is again lower at 177, and has an assult rate of 466 (!) while Phoenix is at 359. It seems that Sperling is basing more on thefts than it does on murders, rapes, and assults! I would rather have my car stolen than be murdered, how about you? And yet Detroit's index is 4300, over 2500 less than Phoenix, I don't get it. I also think it's pretty inaccurate that areas like West Palm/ Boca Raton, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Austin, Fort Lauderdale etc are all higher than areas like Detroit and Pittsburgh, something isn't right.