Relocating from Maine to AZ (Phoenix, Tucson: real estate, apartment, wages)

[steve22]

Genius, let me explain this to you since you seem confused. The index is based on crimes committed per capita for the whole metropolitan area. Since Phoenix has a metro population of over 5 million, and yet only about 1.5 million people live within the city limits, a far more accurate reflection of the city's crime as a whole is to consider the city itself and all adjacent commmunities. The suburban communities outside a major city are generally, these days, thought of as part of the large city itself; that's why you tell people you live in "Phoenix", when in fact, you live in North Scottsdale, which is 45 minutes out from central Phoenix. If you lived in Page, I doubt you'd describe yourself as a resident of "Phoenix". So, it is really a better comparison of "apples to apples" on Sperling's site, since they're taking suburban communities of large cities into consideration but not comparing large cities to some isolated town in podunk, Idaho, which is what the site you've referenced does.

And basically, what these statistics show is what I've been trying to explain to you all along: that the crime in Phoenix is widespread and not just localized to a few bad neighborhoods near downtown. If you look at just the city of Denver itself, as you say only about 600,000 residents, the crimes per capita look fairly high. That's because the city limits of Denver are drawn around a very small area relative to Phoenix's and crime there is pretty localized to a few bad inner-city neighborhoods. When you take into consideration the entire metro area, those crimes per capita therefore drop significantly, because most of the crime is isolated to near downtown and centralized. Same with Detroit, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Austin, L.A., all the others. For example, the city of Detroit has very bad crime in the city itself, with one of the highest murder rates per capita of any major city. But only about 800,000 of Detroit's approximately 6 million residents live within the actual city limits. So, as you noted, that rate drops to 11 when you take into account the adjacent communities where most of the people there live. Now contrast that with Phoenix, which actually has a WORSE crime rate per capita when considering the adjacent communities, proving my point that the crime here is far more widespread. You've shot yourself in the foot with your own argument. The only thing that "isn't right" with Sperling's list is your inability to grasp a simple concept.

Beyond statistics, I actually have personal experience as well to base an opinion on- you don't, which makes it pretty frustrating to try to argue with you. I can say that I've lived in the central cores of both Phoenix and Denver, and based on my personal experiences, Phoenix is much more dangerous. No comparison there. You have no experience living in EITHER place, and for all I know you've never even visited Denver. How then, in God's name, can you even begin to have an opinion on the matter?

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you do for a living, but it would be nearly impossible for me to believe that you'd be any closer to the harsh realities of the inner city than my job brings me. Without going into specifics, suffice it to say I'm pretty sure that I would know better than you. And as I said before, I've never seen anything ANYWHERE- including Detroit- like what goes on here. So if you're sitting behind a desk in Scottsdale, sheltered from reality and thinking life's just peachy and "oh, this guy's just full of b.s.", then don't even pretend to have a valid viewpoint about any of this. It's insulting, frankly, b/c given my personal experience, I know better. And that's not something I can reference with any statistics.

[steve22]

While I'm thinking about it, here's another good article detailing the gang problem, specifically the fact that they're becoming more brazen and now are actually attacking law enforcement.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issue.../feature2.html

A few nice excerpts:

"Gang violence, once reserved for rivals or those unlucky enough to get caught in a drive-by, now targeted the police themselves.

Although Atkinson's death was not gang-related, his shooting forced Masino to acknowledge the danger both officers confronted when they went after the West Side City Crips.

'This [gang violence] has been going on a long time," Masino says. "People don't realize it, but this isn't new. It's just reached the point where the bad guys are hurting the good guys now.'"

"Although the most grisly episodes like the killing of the police officers and the carnage in south Phoenix are trumpeted in the press, gang-related violence has proliferated in the Valley in the dark. Gang activity goes largely unreported. Following police recommendations, the press fails to accurately identify gangs.

A community has to identify its problems before it can fix them, and in the absence of civic attention, gangs have become an epidemic.

State and municipal authorities say they have documented about 600 street gangs in the Valley, more than 300 of them in Phoenix alone. They say the majority of these gangs do not pose immediate threats, but that anywhere from two to four dozen of them are "hard core" and dangerous. "

Sleep tight up there in North Scottsdale, pal.

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by steve22

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/Issue.../feature2.html

Funny you should quote this article. I found it myself yesterday while searching for statistics. Unfortunately I was unable to find anything more current. The New Times did another series later that same year. They were interesting reads.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by Lehi

Funny you should quote this article. I found it myself yesterday while searching for statistics. Unfortunately I was unable to find anything more current. The New Times did another series later that same year. They were interesting reads.

There was a much more recent one, like within the past 2 weeks in the AZ Republic... I'm thinking from a few Sundays ago, where they profiled the escalating gang violence as the front-page story. I'm having trouble finding a link to that one as well. But they actually broke down, in a table adjacent to the story, the number documented of gangs in and around Phoenix and the sheer numbers of individuals involved. It was staggering.

[Lehi]

Originally Posted by steve22

There was a much more recent one, like within the past 2 weeks in the AZ Republic... I'm thinking from a few Sundays ago, where they profiled the escalating gang violence as the front-page story. I'm having trouble finding a link to that one as well. But they actually broke down, in a table adjacent to the story, the number documented of gangs in and around Phoenix and the sheer numbers of individuals involved. It was staggering.

Here's one from June 13th. Not the one you're looking for though.

[steve22]

OK, I found it. It's from June 11th (a little older than I thought... time flies), here's the link:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0611gangs0611.html (broken link)

[doublet]

Are there any community action groups being developed to combat crime and violence in their own neighborhoods? This could be something everyone could come together with, simply to protect themselves and their families, and build some community pride everyone seems to say in lacking in the Phoenix area. If there's anything people want, regardless of their race, it is a safe and healthy place for their children to thrive.

The neighborhood where I own a home here in Charlotte, NC is a "restored" area where crack cocaine, prostitution, gunfire, race tension and violence was an every night, regular occurance only 10 years ago . The neighborhood is still "in transition" as different groups of people (black, white, hispanic, haves & have-nots) are learning how to live side by side. But truly it was the neighborhood association that organized with law enforcement's help, and took back the streets.

It's NOT easy, and Phoenix has the additional stress of being a border state, with huge communication and cultural barriers. It just seems that people could do SOMETHING to help themselves, knowing these are the challenges.

[DogLady321]

WOW some of you people are real downers on this board, i've never seen anything like it.
There must be some places in AZ that are nice to live in. Why the heck would so many people be moving there.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by DogLady321

WOW some of you people are real downers on this board, i've never seen anything like it.
There must be some places in AZ that are nice to live in. Why the heck would so many people be moving there.

Again, as pointed out before, it's called follow the money. In Phoenix, land is cheap, taxes are favorable, building codes are lax, and the cost of labor here is less than in most large metro areas in the West since the cost of living is less. It's been, and continues to be, a financially attractive alternative to California & the also-expensive Pacific Northwest for businesses wanting a western center of operations. Businesses keep relocating here, jobs follow, and people follow. Many of us who are here (myself included) came out because the dollars and cents aspect of the equation just seemed to make the decision a no-brainer. Nowhere else that I was looking at the time offered the same kind of money combined with the affordable housing and low living costs.

However, you live and you learn, and this experience has taught me that quality of life, safety, and a real sense of community can't be bought with all the money in the world. You'll never be happy living in a place you despise, no matter how much money you make. It's not a sacrifice I'll ever make again, least of all for a few thousand dollars difference.

[Azrider]

Originally Posted by steve22

I’ll add a 4th: Valley fever. You forgot that one. It’s life-threatening, it will stay with you forever in some cases, there’s no cure, and it’s endemic to Phoenix and Tucson.

Not entirely true. Although Valley fever can be life-threatening, those types of cases are very few and far between. Accoriding to the Valley Fever web site-- cases of life-threatening valley fever are very uncommon. It states that the disease rarely gets past the flu-like symptom state, and is very treatable and curable-- although you may remain a carrier of it. They also state that SECOND INFECTION is rare. So get the "flu" once? What is the big deal. Pnuemonia and flu were rampant when I lived in the midwest, so whats the difference? They are both life-threatening.

It does NOT just affect Phoenix and Tucson. It affects California, NM, Texas, beloved Colorado, and Utah as well. You can see it on the map.