East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl (Phoenix, Mesa: relocate, transplants, apartments)

[Patrick754]

Originally Posted by cevett

I've already explained that I had a great time there.. For reasons way outside of your urban enrivonment. That was my number one complaint and shared that with nearly everyone who had lived there for more than a year and who had lived in other "cities".

Just travel a little bit and get out of the desert and then tell me that Phoenix resembles the cities of the world. You aren't doing it right. Too much sprawl.. Too much dependence on automobiles.. No sense of neighborhoods, or community or walkability...

That's why Phoenix is one of the youngest cities, apart of the youngest state and already has a giant brown cloud over it.

Phoenix, LA and Houston... The largest communities of the West Coast are the most polluted in the country thanks to your sprawl and pollution from driving all over the damn place.

You should do a little research and educate yourself before ranting about sprawl. Philadelphia is a worse offender than Phoenix.

USA Urbanized Areas: 2000 Ranked by Population(465 Areas)

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by rydellbixby

Sprawl is hotly debated these days everywhere in the United States and I think Phoenix has become the symbol of unregulated growth, sprawl writ large, and as a result becomes the whipping boy for a much larger phenomenon. When people bash Phoenix they are bashing every suburb they've ever hated and the declining power citizens have to impact their communities with regional character. And on the other side of the coin, maybe people really do just love convenience and suntans and cheap houses and that's what it's all about. I don't know. But I think it will be interesting to watch how many boomtowns (Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, Phoenix etc.) will mature, and what kind of adults they will eventually become.

The main gripe I have with sprawl is the heat island it creates for the entire region, especially during the summer months. Look at Phoenix climatolgy over the past 100 years or so, and it's evident that the area cooled off far more rapidly during the late night & early morning hours 40 + years ago than now. This is attributed to not only the concrete & asphalt, but all the pollution created by the long commute times. The Valley is hot enough in the daytime from June through September. Do we really need it to be hot at night too?

Another problem with sprawl is it tends to detract from the more established areas. A city as large as this needs height in the form of highrises ... and I don't mean just 15 or 20 story buildings. For years, developers have been willing to construct 40, 50, and 60 story towers in the downtown/central corridor areas ... only to be met with protests from NIMBYs who don't want their sun or mountain views blocked. As I've said repeatedly, it sure seems odd that the NIMBYs will fight againt things that will enhance the beauty of our skyline & bring in a better class of people, but they seem to have no problem with more of their "precious open desert" being torn up for more cookie cutter strip malls & subdivisons.

Originally Posted by rydellbixby

P.S. Just a little closing gripe. Phoenix, like much of the southwest has a serious water problem and in the coming decades it will become increasingly difficult to keep the region hydrated. Do you really need a lawn?

Good point. However, one other thing that contributes to the heat island effect is all the ROCK YARDS. Yes, they may save on water, but they do generate a lot of heat, while grass lawns have a cooling effect. I have a grass lawn, which I convert to rye in the winter months ... and even though rye grass demands a good share of water, the water usuage is actually less during the winter, as long as we receive normal winter rainfall (like we have been lately). I see no need for a rock lawn. They're ugly and hot!

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I see no need for a rock lawn. They're ugly and hot!

I'm sorry to disagree with you but, desert landscaping is cooler than grass. Grass, and the watering, adds humidity to the air - which makes the heat worse

I'm a lifelong AZ resident (native) - I can assure you that, in the height of summer, you can walk in the desert, in bare feet, and it will not burn your feet.

Also, if you drive from a populated area, to a desert area, during the summer, you WILL feel a difference in tempeture.

[HX_Guy]

Greatday: While the rocks/desert does cool off at night...they come nowhere near the effects that grass does. Can you walk barefoot on gravel during the summer days? What about on grass?

Try this during the summer, drive or walk by one of the many golf courses and let me know if you feel a drop in temperature, because I definitely have. Or, if you car has an outside temp. gauge, drive down Central starting at around Northern heading south and take a look at what happens to the temperature. I was just about dumbfounded this past summer as I drove down Central, and it was around 90 degrees outside...as soon as I passed Northern, the temperature actually started dropping and dropped to around 83 degrees. Once past Camelback, it rose right back up to 90 degrees.

As you probably know, the majority of homes in that stretch have lawn front and back yards as well as mature trees and this is the reason that it noticeably cools offs at nights compared to the rest of Phoenix.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

As you probably know, the majority of homes in that stretch have lawn front and back yards as well as mature trees and this is the reason that it noticeably cools offs at nights compared to the rest of Phoenix.

I do not know how long you have been in Phoenix. Me? Born here. Dang near 60 years.

I can assure you that us "natives" know that it was much cooler - and less HUMID before the "grass and tree" set started moving in.

We had native vegatation - including native trees - the Mulberrys, Olives etc were imported - from the East. They are not native.

AND, I'm from the era that lived here WITHOUT ANY ARTIFICAL cooling - no evaps - no refrigeration.

[ArizonaBear]

Memo to cevett:

Home is where the heart is; you made mention about being from Oregon, the Willamette (sp) Valley and Jersey are actually quite similar in appearance.

I am a Wash DC native; born and raised, left there 30 years and have yet to return there for even a visit.

Culturally speaking; I am West Coast to the bone and I actually like the desert

Too much (PNW/East Coast type) greenery gets on my nerves real fast plus I hate cold.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by Greatday

I do not know how long you have been in Phoenix. Me? Born here. Dang near 60 years.

I can assure you that us "natives" know that it was much cooler - and less HUMID before the "grass and tree" set started moving in.

We had native vegatation - including native trees - the Mulberrys, Olives etc were imported - from the East. They are not native.

AND, I'm from the era that lived here WITHOUT ANY ARTIFICAL cooling - no evaps - no refrigeration.

I havn't been here anywhere near that long...only about 16 years when Phoenix was already sprawling out of control but...

From what I understand, the historic neighborhoods of Phoenix have always had the green lawns and the huge trees. I'm not sure how far back it dates, but it certainly appears these trees have been around as long as the houses, which date back to the early 1900s.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I havn't been here anywhere near that long...only about 16 years when Phoenix was already sprawling out of control but...

From what I understand, the historic neighborhoods of Phoenix have always had the green lawns and the huge trees. I'm not sure how far back it dates, but it certainly appears these trees have been around as long as the houses, which date back to the early 1900s.

Oh - some areas had "lawns" - many were not planted however -

As for the trees - even the Palms were imported - cottonwoods - Desert sage - even some willows were here - your maples, olives and others were imported -

Most homes pre-50's were not cooled. The home I grew up in was real adobe - was common actually. As a kid, my morning chore was to soak the walls with water so my mother could then put an oscillating fan on the floor or table - so as the walls wept - we got some water spit at us.

Swimming was the irrigation canals and horse troughs

Roads were dirt mostly -

It was much cooler

[Tom Lennox 70]

Okay, I'm from the East Coast (Maryland...though originally from Louisiana a long time ago) and its true about the decay of the east, especially the Northeast and the Great Lakes regions. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Buffalo, Rhode Island and Massachusetts are hemorraghing jobs and population every year. Massachusetts even lost electoral votes while Arizona, Nevada, and North Carolina have gained votes.

Phoenix is a city I'm interested in moving to, along with Las Vegas, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Raleigh and Tampa. The only East Coast area north of Richmond that is not declining is the Washington, D.C. area because of the government, tourism, and high-tech sectors maintaining some stability. And this area is overpriced, people are rude and unfriendly, the politics are nuts (who is in Capitol Hill and the White House has absolutely no affect on the Maryland suburbs, which northern transplants have changed into a replica of the tri-state region). A lot of the population stability here is also because there are LOTS of immigrants, quite a few of them illegals, who are moving in and replacing the mostly US-born people who are making the Sunbelt migration.

The New York City area and northern New Jersey actually loses many young people every year to the Sunbelt, especially COLLEGE-EDUCATED youths. At the same time, cities like Atlanta, Phoenix, and Las Vegas have seen massive influxes of American-born, college-educated youths. This is actually a major debate issue in Maryland some while ago. People attend state schools on in-state tuition and one graduate after another takes that job down South or out West.

The only people I know who want to to stay here are those really snobby East Coast types like the original poster, people who look down at "Middle America" and "suburbia" and think they're hip or sophisticated. That, plus hippies and ultra-liberals, and unassimilated minorities. (For the record I'm an Asian American but very assimilated). We see the flashy new subdivisions in Phoenix (and Las Vegas and Palm Springs and Tucson and Albuqerque, the chic resorts in Scottsdale, the lovely scenery in Sedona and Santa Fe, the low cost of living, low crime rates, etc. We see the warm weather, palm trees, desert landscapes, and year-round sunshine.

We look at where we live right now. We see weeks and weeks of dreary gray skies every winter, cooped up indoors until the end of March. We feel we can't fit in unless we're part of the transplanted NY elite that dominates us (imagine the average Joe living in NYC or Boston or even worse Long Island or Westchester). We see our cities crumbling, crime going up every year, illegal immigrants invading and transforming one neighborhood after another while our government welcomes them with open arms. (People have openly spoken Spanish to me like I should understand it....yes I do speak Spanish but I refuse to do it because this is my country and we speak my language here!!!) At the same time, our property taxes are ridiculous, housing costs are ridiculous so that I'll be 45 before I can afford a house in the suburbs. The average house cost in my county is now $1 million and hardly anyone here makes anywhere near that much.

MD being the richest state.....PLEASE take the cost of living into account. I've been out west adn the average person in Phoenix, Salt Lake City, and Las Vegas and Denver and Boise lives better.

[Patrick754]

Originally Posted by Greatday

I can assure you that us "natives" know that it was much cooler - and less HUMID before the "grass and tree" set started moving in.
.

Here's some research from the ASU department of Climatology that contradicts your claim that it was less humid in the past.

CLIMATE OF PHOENIX: PART 1