East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl (Phoenix, Miami: living, centers, statistics)

[scottie]

Originally Posted by cevett

Philadelphia has the 3rd largest downtown in the country

Where did you get this from??? This is not accurate

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) Miami
4) San Francisco
5) Maybe Philadelphia but maybe Houston or Dallas

By the way, youre spitting in the wind trying to convince alot of people what you are saying. I agree with you on some of your points that you bring up. I have stayed there for weeks at a time a few times and have always thought Phoenix is just a big sprawling suburb and that for the 5th largest city in America, downtown was a joke. Some people will just come back with a climate or weather bash like that is all people should care about in determining where they should live, is the weather. I happen to really enjoy Phoenix but do not know if I would ever live there full time. Phoenix has its own style just like other cities do also. I guess thats what makes America great

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by scottie

Where did you get this from??? This is not accurate

1) NYC
2) Chicago
3) Miami
4) San Francisco
5) Maybe Philadelphia but maybe Houston or Dallas

Fannie Mae Foundation: Census Note 3: Downtown Rebound

Top 5 downtown populations As of 2000 census.

New York
Boston- 79,251
Philadelphia-78,349
Chicago-42,039
LA-36,360

SF was 27,500
Houston 11,882

[irwin]

Originally Posted by rainrock

I come in peace as I love to visit beautiful Phoenix but I dont believe the above diatribe does Philadlephia area justice.Heatwaveaz is a little out of the loop concerning the Philadelphia area and thats putting it mildly. There doesnt appear to be a single truthful statement in his synopsis, especially concerning bucolic suburban Philadelphia which has become the economic engine of the Philadlephia region, home to 12 fortune 500 companies and 3 of the wealthiest counties in the usa.(Chester,Montgomery,Bucks) . Center City Philly is home to another 10 Fortune 500 companies.

Philly suburbs-Tract housing and Gas stations? It certainly is not.


There is a vast amount of wealth in metro Philadlephia, and if I may, I will add that metro Philadelphia has more millionaires than any metro in the country behind NY,LA,Chi and SF.

I actually talked to the Phoenix mayor 3 or 4 years ago when he was here in Philly taking notes/brainstorming on how other cities operate. He couldnt say enough good things about Center City Philadlephia. He was amazed at the how vibrant and clean the downtown area was and stressed that his goal is to get downtown Phoenix moving in that direction.

At the risk of being hounded by some of the locals, I have to comment on this.

I like Philly a lot. I love Center City (my buddy used to live down there off Delancey by Rittenhouse Sq). But I am highly skeptical of Phoenix ever getting to be anything as vibrant or enjoyable as Philly. Although it is changing, Phoenix at its heart a pretty conservative place full of retirees or persons close to retirement. Many are not that concerned with vibrant neighborhoods, culture, entertainment, etc. Even though the complete car dependence exemplified by Phoenix is completely unsustainable, people are hardheaded. And whereas in Philly people really care about their neighborhood and street because they have been living in the same place all their life (and their families probably have lived there for generations), people in Phoenix don't have the same level of concern. Houses are traded like any other commodity. As a consequence, concerns about the city or community at large are trumped by "What I want."

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by irwin

At the risk of being hounded by some of the locals, I have to comment on this.

I like Philly a lot. I love Center City (my buddy used to live down there off Delancey by Rittenhouse Sq). But I am highly skeptical of Phoenix ever getting to be anything as vibrant or enjoyable as Philly. Although it is changing, Phoenix at its heart a pretty conservative place full of retirees or persons close to retirement. Many are not that concerned with vibrant neighborhoods, culture, entertainment, etc. Even though the complete car dependence exemplified by Phoenix is completely unsustainable, people are hardheaded. And whereas in Philly people really care about their neighborhood and street because they have been living in the same place all their life (and their families probably have lived there for generations), people in Phoenix don't have the same level of concern. Houses are traded like any other commodity. As a consequence, concerns about the city or community at large are trumped by "What I want."

To try to compare Philly and Phoenix is like trying to compare an apple with a banana! For petes sake - they are two totally different communities - in every way!

For one thing - age. How old is Philly? And, what was the city like when it started?

And, how is Phoenix? And, what was the economies like in each city at their beginnings. Phoenix was (as remains) a cattle and farming community. Philly wasn't.

Phoenix has the Spanish and Indian influence - Philly doesn't.

Phoenix was never suppose to grow - there were TB sanitariums all over the area - intermingled with Orange groves. Philly was not like that

And so on

It is, IMHO, very, very, very silly to even TRY to compare so totally opposite cities in so very opposite types of States

[irwin]

Originally Posted by Greatday

To try to compare Philly and Phoenix is like trying to compare an apple with a banana! For petes sake - they are two totally different communities - in every way!

For one thing - age. How old is Philly? And, what was the city like when it started?

And, how is Phoenix? And, what was the economies like in each city at their beginnings. Phoenix was (as remains) a cattle and farming community. Philly wasn't.

Phoenix has the Spanish and Indian influence - Philly doesn't.

Phoenix was never suppose to grow - there were TB sanitariums all over the area - intermingled with Orange groves. Philly was not like that

And so on

It is, IMHO, very, very, very silly to even TRY to compare so totally opposite cities in so very opposite types of States

Of course one can compare the two, especially in a general sense. You can compare earth and mars so at the very least one can compare Philly and Phoenix.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by irwin

Of course one can compare the two, especially in a general sense. You can compare earth and mars so at the very least one can compare Philly and Phoenix.

OK - Let's see - Philly. Phoenix

Comparison done!

[Highpointer]

Originally Posted by cevett

No where is a worse offender than Phoenix... That's not possible when Phoenix' metro area covers 14,000 miles and Philadelphia covers a barely over 4,000 miles with nearly twice as many people.

Technically, the Phoenix metropolitan area includes Maricopa (9,226 square miles) and Pinal Counties (5,374 square miles), which totals over 14,000 square miles, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. However, this figure is misleading because Maricopa and Pinal counties are large in area and these counties include large amounts of empty and uninhabited land. Much of this land will never be developed in the foreseeable future because it is under control by the government (National Forest, BLM land, city or county parks, military ranges, and Indian reservations). The actual land area covered by homes, businesses, and roads in the Phoenix metropolitan area is closer to about 2,000 square miles. For example, only 1,441 square miles of Maricopa County are incorporated, and relatively few people in Maricopa County live in areas that are not incorporated within a city or town.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by rainrock

Fannie Mae Foundation: Census Note 3: Downtown Rebound

Top 5 downtown populations As of 2000 census.

New York
Boston- 79,251
Philadelphia-78,349
Chicago-42,039
LA-36,360

SF was 27,500
Houston 11,882

Census, in terms of people living downtown? That is different than the downtown I was thinking of. NY and Chicago have much bigger downtowns than Philadelphia's and way more people living there. I dont care what youre census says, there are way more people living in downtown Chicago than Philly. Miami and San Francisco both have bigger downtowns than Philly, not necessarily in terms of people

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by scottie

Census, in terms of people living downtown? That is different than the downtown I was thinking of. NY and Chicago have much bigger downtowns than Philadelphia's and way more people living there. I dont care what youre census says, there are way more people living in downtown Chicago than Philly. Miami and San Francisco both have bigger downtowns than Philly, not necessarily in terms of people

In all due respect Scooter I think I'll stick with The Brookings Institute/Fannie Mae in depth study. Unless of course you can produce some evidence other than I dont care what the census says

As a business district:

NYC- 400 M Sq. FT of office space
Chicago- 120 M Sq. Ft
DC- 90 M sq.ft.
Boston-50M sq ft.
SF- 50 M sq ft.
Phila- 50 M sq ft.

Downtown residential populations as of 2000. The Brookings Report/fannie Mae is the only legitimate source I have found on the subject, if you find criteria to prove that information incorrect by all means do support your claim.Otherwise "I dont care what the census says" just isnt going to cut it.

[synapse]

[quote=irwin;3009354]

I am highly skeptical of Phoenix ever getting to be anything as vibrant or enjoyable as Philly. Although it is changing, Phoenix at its heart a pretty conservative place full of retirees or persons close to retirement. Many are not that concerned with vibrant neighborhoods, culture, entertainment, etc.


Oh, I don't know if that's true. Everybody likes walkable neighborhoods with interesting stores - retirees and college students alike. The success of downtowns in Chandler and Glendale and Scottsdale proves that. Phoenix grew up long after the car culture began, so it'll never be as compact as Philly or Chicago or New York. But the desire of retirees - often from places *like* Philly and Chicago and New York - to have interesting places to walk and see is there.